Emmons p/p 5th and 6th strings tuning instability

Jason Altshuler · From: Brooklyn, NY

I am relatively new to the push-pull world, but I have read that once you get a p/p properly set up with the changer tuned, you shouldn't have to do much (other than tuning at the keyhead) when you sit down to play.

Since buying my Emmons, this has been the case with everything but the 5th and 6th strings. For these two strings, I have to retune at the changer end every time I sit down to play, and usually again if I'm playing for a long time. In other words, when I tune the raised note at the keyhead, the open note is inevitably out of tune, and I have to re-tune the changer. Then about half an hour later, when things start to sound out of tune, I tune the open string, and then find that the raises are now out, and the process repeats. Usually I find that the raises 'increase' while I play; that is, the open string becomes flat while the pedaled note still sounds pretty in tune, so when I tune the open note, the raise becomes very sharp.

Are there any ideas why this would be happening? Could it suggest that something is loose in the tuning mechanism which is allowing the open notes to stray for those two strings? Or is it just because those are the two strings I am playing the most/hardest? I would welcome any ideas or advice on this. It is certainly not the end of the world but I did buy my p/p in part because I had heard how stable they were.

PS I apologize if this topic has been covered before, but I couldn't find anything on the exact issue I am having. Please feel free to direct me to an existing thread if it exists!

EDIT: Right after posting this, I found this thread, which has a few helpful ideas: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=241471&sid=1bf89591c50675ff7962e48a2fdf86a3 It sounds like the end plate screws might be coming lose and need to have the threads fortified... I will give that a try but if anyone has any other specific thoughts I'd still love to hear them! Thanks in advance

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Jason,

I'd lubricate the roller-nuts first, before messing with the end-plate screws. Smile

HOW ROLLER-NUTS AFFECT THE STRING PITCH
The roller-nuts have very little side-to-side free play (~0.002"), and a very close fit on the roller-nut axle, which means they need to be cleaned and lubricated periodically. I'd suggest at least once every a year or two (usually when you are changing the strings).

However, used guitars may not have been properly lubricated by their owners, and gunk builds up at critical points--such as the roller-nuts. The gunk causes the roller-nut to stick and prevents the string from returning to its normal pitch.

PREPARATION
To lube the roller-nut assembly, either take off the strings (with a new set ready to go), or (if you're on a budget) stuff some foam rubber in the top of the changer to keep the old strings on their end-pins and loosen them up a lot with the tuning pegs.

REMOVING THE ROLLER-NUT ASSEMBLY
Then carefully remove the roller-nut assembly from the guitar (if you lose one of the roller-nuts, the odds are you will never ever find it). CAUTION: Do NOT use anything made of metal to remove the roller nut assembly!

If you have difficulty removing the roller nut assembly (as I did the first time I did this to my used Emmons guitar), get 10 wooden shish-ka-bob skewers to insert under each roller-nut.
Then, one at a time, gently lever up the first roller-nut up a fraction of an inch with the skewer tip and push the skewer in a tiny bit further.
Then repeat the same process with the next roller-nut, and so on.
When you get to the 10th roller-nut, start back at #1 and do it again.
I think it took me three rounds of leveraging before the roller-nut assembly finally came out.

Slide the roller nuts off the axle into a small container with a lid, and put the lid on it to keep the roller-nuts from escaping. The Emmons factory roller-nuts are not gauged, so you don't need to keep them in any sort of order--unless someone replaced the factory version with gauged roller-nuts.

CLEANING AND LUBING
I suggest cleaning and lubing the slots on the nut that supports the roller-nut axle to make it easier to remove the next time; I only had to use the skewer process once.

Clean any gunk from the roller-nut axle with a few drops of lighter-fluid and a rag (outdoors is best).
Then use a bit of very fine emery cloth (or "wet & dry" black sandpaper) with a 600 grit or higher and polish the roller-nut axle until if looks and feels perfectly slick.

While outdoors, put a small amount of lighter-fluid into a clean small metal can (such as for tuna or cat food), and let the roller nuts soak for a minute or two on each side, before wiping them dry with a rag.
Next, tape the emery cloth on a very flat surface and clean off both sides of each roller-nut. Examine them for nicks or other damage.

Over the years, I have lubed the roller-nut axle (and the sides of the roller-nuts) with light machine oil, Tri-Flow, a special grease for fishing reels, and most recently Tri-Flow grease. They all work fine, but I believe that the grease has the most staying power.

TIP: If you use liquid Tri-Flow, make sure it is labelled "Superior", and NOT "Superior Dry" (normally sold at bike shops with added paraffin wax to protect your bike chain from mud and water. The paraffin WILL gum up your roller-nuts--and it is very difficult to remove!).

- Dave

Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

the lube advice is great.

on those strings in particular you need to make sure that the two pulls on those changes finish at the same time.

flip the guitar upside down and press your a pedal. make sure that the 10th string and 5th string changer fingers make contact with the tuning screw at the same time. if they don't, one change will be pulling against the stopped finger and will pull things out of tune.

it's also possible that the tuning screws on thos two strings are slipping, and some red loctite might be in order.

have a look at both those issues and report back.

Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

the lube advice is great.

on those strings in particular you need to make sure that the two pulls on those changes finish at the same time.

flip the guitar upside down and press your a pedal. make sure that the 10th string and 5th string changer fingers make contact with the tuning screw at the same time. if they don't, one change will be pulling against the stopped finger and will pull things out of tune.

it's also possible that the tuning screws on thos two strings are slipping, and some red loctite might be in order.

have a look at both those issues and report back.

Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

the lube advice is great.

on those strings in particular you need to make sure that the two pulls on those changes finish at the same time.

flip the guitar upside down and press your a pedal. make sure that the 10th string and 5th string changer fingers make contact with the tuning screw at the same time. if they don't, one change will be pulling against the stopped finger and will pull things out of tune.

it's also possible that the tuning screws on thos two strings are slipping, and some red loctite might be in order.

have a look at both those issues and report back.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

The changer fingers have to pull all the to the body stop. With guitar upside down, engage the A pedal and the changer finger should stop at the body. With pedal still engaged, take your finger and see if changer finger will go any further toward body. If it will, you will have to adjust collars on pull rod to where it will pull all way to body. There should not be a compression spring on 5Th string but one on the 10th. Do same for your 6th string. You can also accomplish same thing by giving pedal more travel by backing out pedal stop screw.that will make your pedal travel a little longer is all. Once changer fingers are stopping at body and can’t go any further, you can tune way a push pull normally tune. Pedal down with keyhead and pedal off at end of guitar.

Have seen this a 100 times. You’re trying to tune a changer finger that’s just floating. Only changer finger that floats is 4th string pull with knee lever E to F. That’s why little tuner is under guitar. Great advice about nut rollers too. If they sticking and won’t roll, never stay in tune.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

You also might check the bellcranks and make sure that they are tight on the cross shafts and that you are able to move the knee levers and the pedals just a titch b4 the changer fingers move to insure you have enough travel to get both the open note and the changed note in tune.

Jason Altshuler · From: Brooklyn, NY

Thanks for the advice everyone! The set screws didn’t seem to be lose or turning on their own,, and the pedal stops were hitting at the same time the changer fingers hit the body, so I figured those two issues weren’t at play. I changed my strings last night and thoroughly cleaned the roller nuts, axle, and the notches they sit on, so fingers crossed I notice a difference with tuning in the coming days.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: