Sho-Bud Springs

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I got some lower return springs from the Ebay guy "himonwry" . I intended to upgrade with brand new springs, while doing an overall overhaul on my 6160.
Turns out these springs don't carry quite as much tension as the old ones. Took me a while to figure out what was going on. In the end I was able to swap out springs, using the old springs on the fingers that were having trouble and using new ones on the solid-performing ones.

I believe that the underlying problem with this guitar may be in the old fingers. Dip tanking the changer is great but doesn't not address excess friction of bad rivets etc. on this 50 year old machine. So I may want new fingers eventually. But for now, a proper amount of spring tension is making the difference and unfortunately the new springs don't have it (proper amount of tension.) I'm guessing that they are not NOS (which is what this guy specializes in with his Bud parts) but, rather, modernly sourced but not quite up to spec. Disappointing.

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

Jon PM me please I have a ton of originals not listed on our site. I'll see if I can help
Thanks
wayne
_________________
Owner Out West Music,Seats,Parts and accessories
www.outwestcountry.ca

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

PM coming, Wayne.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Finding springs to replace the original lower springs can cause many headaches.
Last year when I reworked a MSA Classic. Someone had replaced some of the lower return springs. I could not get the C6th 8 pedal C to A lower on the 10 string, Got hold of some original MSA springs. Put an original LRS on string 10 lengthened it a little. Worked like a charm.

The replaced return spring would not allow the lower, With out allowing the raise lever to pull off the stop.
About Drove me to the Funny Farm.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Any system that requires the springs to be spec'd so precisely.....it kills me when a guitar does not have adjustable springs. A few turns of a screw can compensate for weak or strong springs.

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

Bobby If you need some original weight MSA springs we have all the specs here at our shop. That comes from all the builds we have done in the past. They are much heavier wire than the newer springs. PM me and I can make some up for you. We sell the replacements with the original specs here
https://www.outwestcountry.ca/product/msa-replacement-changer-return-spring/698?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=12

Jon if we don't have what you are looking for in the original spring we can get you the same weight and pull with all the measurements I asked you for.
as for the rest of you folks that have PMed me. Please give me a little bit and I will see about listing all the Sho-Bud and Emmons springs we have...LOL this is going to take a bit Shocked

Thanks
Wayne
_________________
Owner Out West Music,Seats,Parts and accessories
www.outwestcountry.ca

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Here is what I've sent Wayne so that it exist in the records. Unfortunately the length is going to vary depending on exactly where you measure to/from -- the last coils before they bend to the hook? The smaller possible measurement that the caliper can take -- from just before the last coil on both ends?
And then there's the "best calipers that money can buy from Google for under $20" factor.
The picture is included in case anyone does not know what a spring looks like. (I took the pic so I could blow it up on-screen to count the coils. If you think I'm going to squint at these guys and try to count with naked eye .... uh-uh.)

Old Spring

wire: .038"
length: 1.53"
width: .248"
coils: 37

New Spring

wire: .036"
length: 1.44"
width: .255"
coils: 38

edited -- some funky decimal points were behaving badly. Their fault, not mine.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

I've been following this thread with interest, having just installed two full sets of the NOS springs from Himonrye on the Super Pro I refurbished this summer. I had not noticed any issues with the new springs (and admittedly had notices that they were of slightly different specs from the originals).

Yesterday, while adjusting something else underneath, I noticed that the RKR was not returning smoothly. Uh Oh! I quickly took off the NOS spring and replaced it with one of the originals. . . . No change. Turns out the culprit was the reversing arm, which I had set too snugly against the RKR knee bracket, having just replaced both (and throughout the guitar) with aluminum parts from Barry Coker and Michael Yahl. I readjusted and the RKR snapped right back to at-rest position per normal.

Upshot: I personally have had not problems with the NOS springs, but if someone were to manufacture springs to the old specs. I'd probably grab those and install them just tp be safe.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Dan -- it is my assumption, based on non-scientific observation, that if this difference in springs makes a notable difference in performance, it probably means that there are issues in the pull that are being exacerbated by the spring thing.
I'm betting that if my guitar were otherwise performing optimally, the new springs would be up to the task. In fact I rigged a 'lengthener thingy' to add tension to all the springs since even the old springs were not quite doing it.
This is why I had thought "if I can replace all the springs with new ones, that will solve everything -- the old springs must just be tired". Which is how I got to this post -- in fact the new springs made everything a little bit worse instead of better.

The two symptoms I was trying to cure -- (1) lowers not quite returning and (2) lower fingers moving a little bit during normal raises.

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

Jon just a quick post to let you know I haven't forgotten about you. With the Canada post strike. My hands are tied for shipping without breaking the bank. Plus because of our discussion, I am designing a new tool for your springs and others to make the hook quicker and easier and consistent. So once the tool is finished and the strike is over I will ship them out to you
thanks
wayne
_________________
Owner Out West Music,Seats,Parts and accessories
www.outwestcountry.ca

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Wayne -- zero worries! None! But thanks. I'll be interested to see what you've come up with as a tool. A dental pick has been my friend for a while.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

When shortening strings on steels with no spring adjustment.
A rod that fits snug through the spring. With a notch filed to catch 2nd wrap, Helps bending sharp 90 bend on end of spring. When bending end loop at same point on spring radius, So the spring slides smooth over the stop bar. With no drag, _IIIIIIII_. And no twisting hook to attach.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

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