Modern vs vintage sound

Joseph Lazo · From: Wisconsin, USA

I'm a noob to pedal steel, coming from guitar and lap steel. I've been thinking a lot about tone and found a video by Albert Svenddal on YouTube. At around 01:15 in the vid he says there are two camps on PSG tone: The Sho Bud camp and the Emmons push pull camp. The Sho Bud camp he characterizes as a "warm, rich, fat sound." The Emmons sound he characterizes as a "thin, brittle, sharp tone. " He's in the Emmons camp.

I bought a 6-string PSG based on a few demos I heard online, thinking it was midway between those two sounds, only to find it has more of that "sharp, brittle" sound...which I'd describe more as thinner, with a pronounced "twang." To me, it sounds more like a lap steel than a pedal steel, if that makes any sense. I love twang, so I'm ok with this, but I can see getting a second PSG at some point to get that "fatter" tone. The Jacksons I've heard on demos have it. In one of those demos, Zane King describes it as a "warm hug." It's such a great sound, especially on those low strings, and it's one I can't get by twiddling with tone knobs, equalizers, or effects.

I don't know what the output of the pickup on my PSG is, but suspect it's pretty high. My gut feeling (totally unscientific) on pickups is that low output p'ups feel less responsive, but have greater tonal range, while higher output p'ups seem to make every note more immediate, more "lively", but with less tonal range and harder to control without using a compressor.

https://youtu.be/2S9NAHwCzFs?si=fPfeKLNZAPVbTGhi

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Hi, Joseph. All things being equal between magnet type and wiring, and method used for winding and so forth...a hotter-output pickup should produce a warmer, fatter tone.

Keep in mind that the amp, and particularly the choice of speaker can have the biggest effect on tone, even moreso than pickup choice. So, maybe try out a different amp/speaker before switching out the pickup. And whatever amp you end up with, don't be shy about seriously dialing back the highs, if necessary.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I don't beg to disagree with the OP... but:

Recording technology and preferences seem to be left out in the whole rationale.
Vinyl and shellac had it's own "sound" and so die HiFi compared to what we hear today from "digitally WIDE" sound of much smaller reproducing equipment.
What we hear recorded from the 30's on up thru the 50's DIDN't really sound like that. Engineers battled fidelity limitations by "staging" to give a "3D" sound even before Stereo.
You can't just get a 1937 Rickenbacher B7 and play it thru a VoluTone amp in your bedroom and expect to sound like Jerry Byrd on the "HiFi Steel Guitar"-album (which was anything BUT "High Fidelity").

What I am trying to say is, that instruments back then didn't really sound like we believe from what we hear from old records.
Also, back then, the instruments were NEW. They aren't today, even if they are in "investment grade" or "colector's" condition. The wood aged, things settled, etc.

I learned about Jimmy Day from EARLY recordings with Willie Nelson. I listen to Nelson because of Jimmy Day.
I also remember seeing him for the first time in the second half of the 90's in St-Louis, MO and I was SO disappointed because he totally lacked that dry woody overtoney sound I love so much on these records.
I asked him about it and he seemed surprised and told me that how he sounded that tday the way he always sounded..., just on records from 30 years before, he sounded different.

So, while I feel that some of the oldest instruments like Rickenbachers, some Fenders and Bigsbys paired with the period correct amps, DO have a propensity to sound "vintagy"/different. Fender Pedal Steels, were "different" instruments to ShoBud and Emmons and everything which ensued, most any early 60's ShoBud or earliest Emmons PushPull can sound as modern as any of the latest PSGs today.

I like "vintage" stuff too... classic American cars, DC-3's, acoustic French-Italian steel string guitars (Django Reinhardt/Selmer-Maccaferri-style), vintage amps, JBL D130 speakers, everything.... well, maybe with the exception of "vintage" women Devil

... just seem more attractive to me. And nevertheless, I got the most vintagey sound now out of my ultra-modern Sierra S12, playing thru a modeler amp which was made in Asia with anything but steel in mind. And mind you, one of my still best sounding amp still is my ShoBud Xmas Tree with the JBL D130. So, what can I say. I by now seem to disagree with myself!

I remember too, walking "into" BE at an early mid 90's show (Dallas or St-Louis) in a "Derby"-room. It was crowded like they were giving out free guitars as "Someone" was playing and VERY good, and sounded great... but after I made my way thru the crowd gather around him, I was still a bit surprised to see that it was his Majesty the King playing.
I later told Bud Carter and John Fabian and he told me 2 things:

- "... too early in the day (no "Lulu" yet)"
- "... don't worry, he'll sound as you'd expect him to, Saturday night at Prime Time".
And so it was.
Now given, that's nothing to do about "vintage" / "old school" vs. "the new stuff"... but it goes to how tone can be affected a LOT by many circumstances.

I brought a Prototype PSG to the 2000 Dallas show for some of the Greats to kick it's tires and give us feedback, and Maurice was the first to come to my room in the morning to play and review it. We had no amp yet, but I was convinced that he would hear how our interpretation of a PSG was sounding different (we would argue "better") even un-plugged. Maurice said: "Boys, this is an electrical instrument which consist of a guitar AND an amp. I can't really tell you for certain what I think of it's sound if one half is missing". I was distraught, because he had other engagements that day and couldn't come back by the time we were promised amp and his opinion, I knew would have been stone cold sincere, good or bad.
And yes, I agree... you put a modern guitar thru a 1930's amp... it will sound different. And vice versa too.

... J-D.
_________________
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I like all of that JD, I would only add that the SOUND of the instrument that best serves is entirely dependent on the ARRANGEMENT, this is why top-flight guitar slingers carry multiple guitars and amps and horn players often carry multiple horns. You can build an arrangement around a mix-forward steel guitar, with lots of midrange and rich texture, or you can fit the steel guitar into a broader mix, scooping the mids to achieve a thinner tone that allows room for a larger ensemble to share the stage. That's science at work.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

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