SGI E lever tuning issue

Chuck Johnson · From: California, USA

Hi. I'm hoping someone familiar with this design can weigh in. I have an old Fuzzy/SGI and the E lever throws both E strings flat. The tuning resets if I use a raise (either the F lever or C pedal.) The culprit seems to be this little elbow joint, that doesn't fully reset after lowering the pitch. But raising the string resets it. I read through Jon Light's helpful post on overtuning but that doesn't seem to be the issue here. If anything, it seems like there needs to be more tension on the resting strings.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ectU2UTKXpmdjR7n9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qccCJkHsd3xBJDd9A

Thanks!
Chuck

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Chuck Johnson · From: California, USA

Thanks Tucker. It looks like I described the symptom wrong: the raises actually throw the E strings sharp, not the other way around. I loosened all the raises on strings 4 and 8, and the strings return to correct pitch after using the E lever. When I re-introduce the raises then they sharpen the strings by 5-10 cents. I must have assumed the lower was the culprit because of how that return mechanism doesn't seem to return all the way after a lower. With the raises out of the picture, pushing that elbow further in has no effect on pitch.

There is another issue that may be involved here: several of the return springs tend to get caught in between the changers rather than riding over them. Not sure if it's a design flaw, or the the springs should be changed? You can see it happening here on strings 2 4 and 8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nRrjVbTh7nMWr8Hw8

At one point I tried inserting a thin piece of plastic under the springs to prevent this, but the motion of the springs always pulls the plastic out. I suppose I could figure out a way to adhere it so it stays put...

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I really wish I could help. I've got to believe that if your guitar were here on my bench, the problem would become apparent. But without LOTS of photos and videos of all sorts of things and all sorts of angles, I just can't do anything.

Do take a look at the changer end. Are any of the nylon tuning nuts getting hung on anything? This is a somewhat hidden issue that isn't always obvious until you realize that it's the source of the problem. Then you can't believe that you missed it.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

So, the description of the problem is: raises on 4 and 8 come back sharp. Using the lower lever resets them.

Is that right?

If so, Divide and Conquer. What happens if you isolate the raises by removing the lowers (unscrew the tuners on 4 and 8 until they have no effect)? Also, remove the two raises on the 4th string -- so that the only string with any action is the 8th string raise with the F lever.

Does that 8th string raise come back to pitch? If so, add back the 4th raises one at a time, checking as you go. Start with the the F lever, then the C-pedal. If that all works, add back the lowers on 4 and 8, one at a time, checking outcome with each step.

As for the springs, in the photo, the top one is String 10, not String 1. So, the goofy springs maybe aren't on 4 or 8? Sorry, it's hard to tell from my perspective which springs in the photo are dragging. If everything is working properly, those springs wouldn't be involved when doing a raise. They're supposed to just sit tight and hold the lower-finger snug so it doesn't move while the raise finger is doing its thing. If they are stretching a little during a raise, report back.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Hard to see what the problem is with only 1 picture of the changer.
The 4th string Return Spring looks like it may be putting side pressure on raise lever. The spring looks like it has a kink in it, From the anchor hole to the lower return lever.

There is something strange about the space between the 7th and 8th string levers, The space looks wider in the picture, Than the other spaces between the changer levers. And the raise lever looks like it is bent, Or the rivet is not holding the levers together.

Good luck finding the cause and a quick fix. Happy Steelin.

Chuck Johnson · From: California, USA

I've finally had a little more time to analyze this, and following the steps suggested by Tucker:

What happens if you isolate the raises by removing the lowers (unscrew the tuners on 4 and 8 until they have no effect)?
DONE - no effect on string tuning

Also, remove the two raises on the 4th string -- so that the only string with any action is the 8th string raise with the F lever.
DONE

Does that 8th string raise come back to pitch?
NO - Comes back sharp!

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

How old are the strings?
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

John Palumbo · From: Lansdale, PA.

Let me admit that I'm the least knowledgeable on your issue and would refer to the more experienced ones. But looking at the photo showing the bottom of the end plate, where the return springs are attached.Does that have a curve or a bend in it, that is exaggerating the kinks in the springs. Maybe I'm seeing this wrong.
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Chuck Johnson · From: California, USA

There is a curve there. Having never seen another SGI in person I can only assume it's by design.

Strings were changed a couple months ago, and this issue has been happening for longer than that.

Chuck Johnson · From: California, USA

I wonder if there is simply something I'm missing about the pull-release design - and the potential quirks regarding strings with raises and lowers (like the E.)

Chuck Johnson · From: California, USA

I did some more troubleshooting with an instrument builder friend today. He doesn't have much experience with pedal steel but his mechanical mind is much better than mine(!) and it seems that something binds inside the changer that prevents the strings from returning to pitch after lowering. There are no visible points of contact between the fingers, and it isn't related to the friction of the fingers against the springs. Everything got a good lube and all unwanted points of contact were filed off, but short of removing the changer assembly I'm not sure what else to do - that's above my pay grade.

I would be curious to hear from another SGI owner about whether that bowing in the frame where the springs attach is by design or if the guitar suffered some kind of impact at some point.

Thanks!

John Palumbo · From: Lansdale, PA.

Hi Chuck, is this the guitar that you may have purchased, if not there some pictures there that may help you out. Or the seller may be able to assist. Good Luck with this, Hope you find some answers!
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2818209
_________________
Mullen G2, Hilton VP, Roland Blues Cube Hot, Keeley Caverns V2 Delay & Reverb

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Yes, there is binding. It's just a matter of finding where it is.

To check if it's the changer rather than something in the pull chain, take a pen or a small screwdriver and push on the end of the raise finger (near the tuning nut). This will manually raise the pitch of the string but will leave the pedals, crossbar, and pull rods out of the equation. If it still won't return to pitch the binding is in the changer.

It sounds like you're pretty confident it's in the changer? There are two main spots to hit with lube, the axle and the rivet that holds the fingers together:

Lube the big axle by first loosening the strings, getting the stuff between the fingers, then working the fingers to move the lube around... including turning the guitar upside down for a bit to try to get it to flow to the difficult-to-reach part of the axle directly under the strings. The fingers actually ride on the top of that axle... and that's why you loosening strings. That helps releive some pressure on top to allow lube to flow there more easily.

I'm not familiar with your pull-release changer, but an all-pull changer has a rivet down in the center bowels that holds the two fingers together. Maybe yours is similar? You can't see it without a flashlight... and sometimes you can't see it unless you remove the spring. But it's the main point of metal-on-metal contact in the changer. With a flashlight, you can direct one drop of lube to that rivet using either an oiler with a long tube, or lacking that, using a long piece of wire (i.e., coat hanger) and drip the goo down the wire to its target.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I can't visualize well enough without more views of what's happening.
But a generic thing to check for is that the the threading on the rod (where the nylon tuners screw on) is not engaging with the changer finger hole. This is one reason why many guitars use unthreaded spacers between the tuning nut and the changer finger -- to make sure that only smooth portions of the rod are sliding through the hole.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Sounds like classic "hysteresis" - Usually attributed to the roller nuts sticking.
See if you can correct it by pressing down on the E string behind the nut before you do anything else.
If it corrects the problem, remove strings and roller nut/axel, clean/polish lubricate then put back together.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Agreed that it's good to lube the roller, but I don't think this is hysteresis caused by a sticky roller: in that case, raises come back flat.

But in this situation, raises are coming back sharp.

Chuck Johnson · From: California, USA

Update: I took Steve Sanford's advice and blasted the changer with compressed air, then did another round of injecting lube in between the fingers as best I could. And it helped with the binding a lot!

And in the meantime I decided to pull the trigger on an Excel Robostar, which seems to be Fuzzy's modern version of this SGI. I'll get the SGI in tip top shape and will be selling it soon here on the forum.

Thanks everyone for the help!

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