Novice question : S10 vs D10 vs Universal

Paul Mageau · From: Maine, USA

Hi Folks,

I am new to pedal steel (long time guitar player though) and have found a nice clean Carter D10 for $2800. I think that's a good deal from looking at previous sales here. I like the C6 "sound" and the reason I am interested in PSG is Western swing and Jazz. Regardless, I have a lot to learn on any neck !

So, here's the question...

What approach would you take to buying your first pedal steel(let's assume I buy a solid make/model)?
1) Keep it simple, buy a less expensive S10 E9 and see how the pedal steel journey goes
2) Buy a heavier and more expensive D10 so I can learn the C6 neck and the kind of music I aspire to play. I am concerned I will never use one of the necks and will waste money.
3) Buy a more expensive Universal, since I have no neck/pedal/KL bias yet, and get the best of both worlds in terms of harmonization

Thanks in advance !
Paul

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Kelcey ONeil · From: Sevierville, TN

I'm not a player, so my personal opinions don't carry much weight. I do however, serve a lot of players, and this is the general consensus from working with them and what the market is doing.

The Carter is a good buy at that price. The single neck market is hot, I'm regularly seeing singles sell for as much or more than comparable doubles, so you're not wasting money on the back neck, you're getting it for free. Unless weight is the primary concern, the smart buy is a D10.

I'll probably get a lot of hate for this lol, but Universals and Day setup seem to have some things in common: lots of discussion but not much population. Out of hundreds of guitars I've handled, about 6 have been Day(apart from the ones that came in for service as Day, and left as Emmons), and about that many were Universals. Most players I know who play Universal just got started that way, and several have told me they wished they had went with a standard rig, at the least because they're much more readily available.

Nothing wrong with either of those things, just very much in the minority statistically.

My two cents worth, now I will duck in cover!
_________________
Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I started on a D10 and loved the C6 side.

I soon swapped to a uni to save weight.

If you find a D10 you like, tune the C6 down to B6 (no need to change string gauges) in preparation for a possible change to uni. Even if you don't swap, it gets the key of C away from the nut.

Good luck!! Smile

_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

You need to add the 12 string D13 to this discussion. It's not an S-10, or a D-10 or a universal. It does however cover all of the D-10 and more. More meaning it covers non-pedal 13th riffs, Curly Chalker's changes and Maurice Anderson's changes. It does so while conceptually giving you an extended low range E9th and an extended high range C6 if you choose to view then that way. If you go with a keyless guitar, this can be a very compact and super light setup.

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

I'd say grab the Carter! Great axe, good price. "Explore your options" after you have some playing time under your belt.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Spent a year on E9, switched to e9/B6 (eg. Universal) for 15 years to gradually grow into 6th, then migrated to D10.

If I had to do it over, I'd start with a D10, and naturally enjoying the big complex sounds of the C6 neck that would have been my early focus.

But I mistakenly thought C6 was to be feared based on the common associations of it. Once you learn to pick, slide, block, and intonate (aka "it takes two years to suck") - you will find it's easy to make C6 sound cool, and easy to make E9 sound cheesy and mundane. Playing E9 with an abundant inventory of interesting fills and musical ideas is the difference between a good and great player.

C6 is easy and intuitive to jam on, even just with its open string tuning. The chords are definitely more complex to understand in the context of music theory, but the sounds of the chords are accessible to the ear, so its possible to catch on without starting with charts etc, although if you learn to read charts early, the better you will begin to understand the instrument. I say this because I started on charts very late, and my progress accelerated alot with them.

D10 all the way. For $2800, a no-brainer. D10.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I switched from a U12 to a D10 and everything started to fall into place. The thinking that you will be able to play more complex chord voicings on a U12 over a C6 or E9 is a common misunderstanding. The pedalsteel is not an autoharp mixed with a slide rule. Get an elegant and logical E9 or D10 and learn your intervals then play whatever you want. The notes are there. Plus if you get a D10 you can experiment with the C neck without screwing up your E neck.

It takes a while to know what you don’t know so the main thing is to get started. It’s normal to change things as you learn and there is no ultimate perfect tuning.
_________________
Bob

Bill McCloskey · Posted 26 Aug 2024 5:01 am

I started with and extended E9th and then tried every combination: S10s, s12's, D10's, D12's, Universal.

But finally I landed on a 12 string 8x6 with Johnny Cox's tuning. I can do everything I could do on C6th and E9th on ONE neck and I don't have to think in two different tunings, like a universal tuning would.

I just ordered an MSA 12sting with D13 on it. I'm selling everything else. At this point, I've dedicated myself to D13 and have zero interest in owning an E9 or C6 neck again.

Paul Mageau · From: Maine, USA

Thanks again for all your insightful help everyone! This forum is the best !

Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I vote for 12 string universal E9th/B6th but that is a good deal on the Carter.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

There are several players who use the 12 string universal tuning although I'm not sure how many of them are geared solely or mostly to swing.

One that comes immediately to mind is Maurice Anderson and his Bb6th universal tuning. Reece played mostly jazz, big band and swing stuff to perfection on his 12 string tuning.

David Wright and Junior Knight both play or have played 12 string unis though I don't know if they favor swing, jazz and the like.

FWIW, I played 12 and 14 string conventional E9/B6 unis off and on for several years. I think that yes, you can play everything you need or want for swing music there.

The difference is the feel, the extra strings and grips, and the little tuning wiggle thing there with the E string when pedaling with it lowered and coming back etc. I'm not describing it well, probably others can do better at that, but it is an issue that some players don't like to deal with.

Also, some players like different pickups for the D10 which of course you don't generally have with a single neck guitar.

Then again, if there's no interest in the E9th tuning, you can always just do a C6 or other favorable tuning on a 10 string single necker too.

Bill McCloskey · Posted 27 Aug 2024 12:34 pm

Before jumping into the E9/B6 pool:

Remember you still need to "think" in TWO different tunings. If I'm thinking in E9th mode, my root C position in on the 8th fret. If I'm thinking in B6, my root C position is on the 13th fret. I'm am still mentally thinking in two different tunings, grips, licks, etc.

In D13, and one of the things I enjoy most about it is: If I'm thinking in E9th mode, my root C position is on the 10th fret. If i'm "thinking" in C6 mode, my root position is...on the 10th fret.

I can't begin to tell you how freeing this is. Instead of thinking in two different positions, I think one position, one tuning, with everything E9 and C6 have and more. If you are just starting out, you should give serious consideration to the advantage of only having to learn one neck and having any E9 and C6 instructional material available with some minor transposing.

John Sims · From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

I'm with Ken. I play a U-12 E9/B6 Carter but I am liking the D13 tuning
_________________
Best Regards,

John

1997 Carter U-12 Double Body-Natural Birdseye Maple-8p/5k, Peavey Nashville 1000 Amp, Goodrich L10K Vol. Pedal, Boss DD-3 Delay, Boss CE-5 Chorus, Behringer UMC-204HD Audio Interface, AKAI MPK Mini MK3 Professional Midi Keyboard/Controller, Gretsch Bobtail Resonator, Fender Banjo, Rondo SX Lap Steel (C6), DIY Lap Steel (Open D), and a few Mojo Hand Cigar Box Guitars (MojoHandGuitars.com).

Paul Strojan · From: California, USA

If where learning steel guitar anew, I would start with a D13 lap steel and learn the basics without going to the expense of buying a pedal steel.

Paul Mageau · From: Maine, USA

Paul Strojan, what is the D13 tuning on a lap steel ? Does this require more than six strings ?

Paul Strojan · From: California, USA

Johnny Cox’s D13 is a E9 pedal steel tuning with an added 6th note tuned down to D. I use the same idea in key of E, the advantage is all the pedal steel instruction is in E9. I had mechanical and ergonomic frustrations with my pedal steel so in order to play it I restrung it to F#, G#, E, C#, B, G#, F#, E, D, B. On eight string, I have had fun with G#, E, C#, B, G#, F#, E, D. I don’t think it would work on six strings. Most of what needs to be learnt to play pedal steel can be learnt on lap steel the beauty with a E9 add six is that everything transfers ove from non pedal to pedals.

Thornton Lewis · From: New York, USA

If you love western swing get the d10. You can always resell it once you have figured out the instrument. I play a uni (coming from an e9), but it's a decision I don't think you're ready for. Play the d10. Decide what you're really going to use. Then keep it or sell it and buy what you've decided you want.
_________________
Less equipment, more practice.

Matthew Walton · From: Fort Worth, Texas

Paul, if your interest is Western swing and jazz, now is the perfect time to go universal Bb6/Eb9. Like you said, since you're just starting out, you won't have to get over any mental barriers should you decide to switch later. I believe David Wright told me the tuning he started out on was Bb6/Eb9 (from Maurice himself).

The two primary universal tunings are Bb6/Eb9 and E9/B6. These are nearly exactly the same. At its most basic, it's they're just a half step away from each other, and whether a particular knee lever is set up to raise two strings, or lower two strings, to get you to the other "mode." If you prefer to live in the swing/jazz world, go Bb6/Eb9, if you prefer to live in the country world, go E9/B6.

As mentioned above, Maurice Anderson played that tuning, David Wright plays that tuning, and Junior Knight plays that tuning (sometimes). I also play Bb6 universal, but I'm nobody. Very Happy

As folks are mentioning, there's also Johnny Cox's D13 universal. I still haven't had the chance to play it myself, but folks seem to love it and there's less translation required.

All three of these universal tunings are designed for a 12 string guitar.

I do want to push back a little bit against "you have to think in two different tunings." The inclination when going from a double neck to a universal is to think of them as two different tunings, and that's admittedly what I do, but I think the magic of the tuning really happens once you start to blur the mental lines and think of it as one big tuning. Ideally you're not thinking "okay I'm in country mode, on this fret, so now I mash these pedals and that gets me the 4 of my virtual 1," you're just thinking "this combination of knee levers and pedals gives me real world plus 2." My favorite stuff that David Wright plays is when he plays some country run and throws a big fat jazzy chord right in the middle.
_________________
If something I wrote can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.

1981 MSA "The Universal" Bb6 S-12 9/5 | 2024 Excel Robostar Bb6 S-12 8/5 | 2009 MSA SuperSlide C6 S-12 | Peavey Nashville 112

Matthew Walton · From: Fort Worth, Texas

One other thought:

If you do decide that Bb6/Eb9 is the way to go longterm, but the price of that Carter D-10 is too good to pass up, you could tune it down so it's Eb9 on top and Bb6 on the bottom (some heavier-gauge strings may be required, I'm not sure).

That way once you do buy a Bb6 S-12, you will not have to struggle with everything all of a sudden being a fret or two away from where you're used to it being. And your primary challenge at that point would just be to merge the two tunings together so you can do those seamless licks like I mentioned before.

The one big downside of a universal tuning I will admit, is that teachers for them are not very common. But I'm sure you could still find someone willing to work with you; you'll just be at fret 10 when they're at fret 8 etc.
_________________
If something I wrote can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.

1981 MSA "The Universal" Bb6 S-12 9/5 | 2024 Excel Robostar Bb6 S-12 8/5 | 2009 MSA SuperSlide C6 S-12 | Peavey Nashville 112

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

When I was starting out many years ago, I was a disciple of Jeff Newman, and figured that universal was the way to go. Assuming that anything worth doing was worth over-doing, I ordered an S14 Sierra! Great machine, but a real mistake, for me anyway. 14 strings is a mighty wide road, especially for a beginner. I later got an S12 Sierra (which I sold to b0b).
At one point, a good deal on an Emmons Lashley Legrand showed up at Buddy Charleton's shop, and I grabbed it. My playing instantly got better and the various instruction material I had made more sense. I have been on D10 ever since.
I do think that universal is a very valid approach for some. Personally, I rely on the 9th string D always being there without a lever. (can of worms time!)
_________________
"You call that thing a guitar?"

Rick Kornacker · From: Dixon Springs, Tennessee, USA

Hey Paul! I would offer a suggestion in a broad sense. That is, single neck guitar, tuning of your choice...ten or twelve string. Market seems to be moving away from the double neck steel and interest in learning two separate tunings at once. Maybe just a decision based on utility. Know lots of guys who have lost interest in the "second" neck endeavor, giving way to the fact that there is so much on the E9 in addition to the obvious country sounds. So, E9, or another single tuning may be an answer. I am personally using my E9 tuning well beyond what I thought was possible, just utilizing a few additional changes to my co-pedant. Developing your technique, musical knowlege, and "ear" will get you there. Just some helpful "food for thought". Go for it! Best,RK😉
_________________
"think MORE...play LESS"

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I would go for the D-10 as Kelsey said. As far as Day or Emmons set up, I’d just pick what’s comfortable to the way your foot works. Though Day is for sure the minority, it’s just makes more sense and more comfortable for me so just what ever feels best to you.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic