Tuning pull dilemma on strings 5 & 10

Savell · From: Slocomb, AL

So, let's just say I have a friend that has a situation.

He tunes his 5th and 10th strings perfectly in open position, then he tunes his pulls for those strings perfectly according to his Peterson Strode tuner with a pedal steel sweetener. All is good. He plays for about an hour or so (basically his first set). All has been going well but he notices his “A” pedal now seems just a bit questionable.

Using his strobe tuner, he finds his open 5th and 10th strings are absolutely perfect still. However, the pull is barely off but off (slightly low) just the same. So, he tweaks the nylon nuts to bring them back up to perfection. He plays again. All is well until the end of his second set for the night.

So goes the journey in search of happiness. New strings, well maintained changer mechanisms, amongst other normal chores of those that keep the instruments in tip top shape, no visible wearing issues, etc.

In order to correct this repeating offense, He finds time during the week to turn the instrument upside down and verify that the tiny screw in the barrel is firmly tightened to make sure the rod is not slipping when the pull is made. He puts new nylon nuts on both rods to ascertain the nut is not slipping. Actually, there is no undue stress on the nut when tuning the pull,

How does the open tuning always stay in tune, but the pull consistently work itself out of tune. It can’t be wood related; the screws would be falling to the floor by now. It can’t be changer related the open strings would also detune maybe even not return to perfection. It seems there must be some point of correction he is missing.

Anyone have a reasonable mechanical suggestion?

richard burton · From: Britain

Check that the nut rollers are free to rotate
Tighten the'lower'return springs slightly (assuming it's an all pull steel)

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Make sure there is free play in all changes at rest or you might never get it to stay in tune.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Your friend seems like a nice guy. Ask him what kind of guitar it is so I can visualize the sitch better.

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Make sure the pedal stop is locked down. Don’t ask me how I know this can be a problem. Rolling Eyes

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

Check for a loose or cracking bellcrank.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

A cracked bell crank did that to me. Eventually it failed altogether, so if that's the answer replace it asap
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Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

If I am understanding the original post correctly, both the tenth and the fifth string are not pulling correctly, so it would have to be two bellcranks failing simultaneously. That seems unlikely.

Mike DiAlesandro · From: Kent, Ohio

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yup, a bunch of things are possible. Also review Jon Light's sticky thread on over/under-tuning, which can result from the lack of slack/free-play Jim mentions.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Since nothing has been said about the tuning changing while the guitar is at home woodshedding.
Something about the location on the stage, Either heat or cold is changing something. Something is either shortening or Getting longer in the pull chain, Or binding When exposed to the stage conditions.

Maybe the only way to find the problem is have the guitar in same conditions as on stage.

Good Luck in finding the problem and a good cure for the problem.

Savell · From: Slocomb, AL

Richard - "Check that the nut rollers are free to rotate. Tighten the'lower'return springs slightly (assuming it's an all pull steel)"

The nut rollers are free to rotate.
Not sure how to tighten the lower springs as these are a simple hooks at both ends
It is an all pull guitar

Jim - "Make sure there is free play in all changes"

There was free play on 10, but 5 was snug up against the changer. I re-adjusted to assure free play was the same on both.

Jon - "what kind of guitar it is so I can visualize"

I totally understand the need to visualize, but I'm afraid that will start a conversation on how this particular brand blah blah blah. Ha! I am thinking mechanics on any all pull should be capable of corrections.

Dan - "Make sure the pedal stop is locked down."

Pedal stop is absolutely locked on pedal A

Clyde - "Check for a loose or cracking bellcrank."

As best I can see no problem here

Bobby - "home woodshedding"

After due diligence to the above suggestions, I played the guitar reasonably aggressive with tracks for about 40 minutes before encountering the detune again.

Totally puzzled! It seems to me that its gotta be something with pedal A mechanisms. Only pull that detunes.
Odd that both pulls on the one same pedal is reacting identical with identical offset of cents on the tuner.

While writing this, I thought about the C pedal pulling 5 as well. I checked the tuning on the strobe. The C pedal also has the same cents of detune on string 5 but does not detune on string 4. Will spend time on that today and will get back to you guys.

So appreciative of your support and help.

Savell · From: Slocomb, AL

Okay, so just in case any of you are interested in how this panned out...

I looked underneath to find the rod for pedal C was crossed up with the rods around it causing unnecessary contacts (see in pics below). I relocated the bell crank back in line where it should be thereby eliminating those conflicts. However, I am trying to locate and swap out the full swivel on that rod with a half swivel so the lower rod will not touch the swivel from the C pedal.

I noticed a tad bit of hesitance for the rods to move freely through the changer holes. So I took them completely out and cleaned both sides of the small washers between the nylon nuts and the changer. I also used 180 sandpaper and rubbed down the rods along that 3" space at the changer end so that the travel through the changer was completely smooth without any snagging hesitance.

I set the dang thing upright and played the heck out of it for almost 2 hours. Guess what! the pulls did not detune. With my fingers crossed, I am gonna take this girl out with me Friday to give her another stage run. Wish me luck.

Wah Lah... Now I need to find somebody with a half swivel they can spare.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I admit to thinking of the A pedal in isolation and forgetting that the C might be indirectly involved.
There is the additional snag with investigating this kind of contact problem, that gravity being what is, it can appear/disappear when you upend it on the bench.
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John Hyland · From: South Australia

If both strings are affected then that eliminates things which affect only one string. Ie, connecting rod, nylon tuners nut rollers and bellcranks. As it also affects more than one pedal so that eliminates the cross rod. That leaves the fingers. I have no answer but look carefully there. Are things returning as they should? Maybe they just need a lube and a clean.

Savell · From: Slocomb, AL

Is there a way to clean the changer without taking it out?

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

The problem with crisscrossed pull rods Can cause many problems and be hard to find. When you turn a guitar upside down to check underneath, Long pull rods can curve opposite of when guitar is upright, Just by weight of the rods changing their position.

If the guitar has some age on it, About the only cure to the problem is pull the changers and clean every piece, and lube. So no drag occurs in the changer.

Larry Jamieson · From: Walton, NY USA

That is one beautiful old "Bub" you have there, and I have it on good authority that red guitars sound better...

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Rick Grieco · From: Long Island, New York, USA

It's funny that this thread popped up today.

Last night, I went to play my Justice S10 (after not being able to play for a few months) and when I pressed the A pedal, the 5th string would raise but the 10th wasn't raising at all. I gave Ron Anderson a call this morning, and he said it sounds like the nylon nut isn't tightening. He suggested I take it off and turn it around, and sure enough, the 10th string was raising again. He said that would be a temporary fix to get me going and is sending me new nylon nuts to replace it.

This is one of the reasons I chose to have Ron build me a guitar...he is an amazing builder and is an absolute pleasure to work with...a classy guy all around!
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