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Topic: Why a Diminished tuning works. |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2024 6:30 am |
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I have gotten some interest about the tuning I have been using, and some people seem a bit curious, while others seem to want to write it off as a joke or bad idea. I am trying not to come off defensive, but the sarcasm of some folks on this forum is a big turnoff. I want to explain that this is not a completely original idea or a new one, it goes back to what I believe is the first highly functional pedal steel built. This is the guitar that almost made Jerry Byrd want to start pedal. This tuning has a major third on top and uses raises only, but the concept is basically the same.
The Ernest Tavares 1947 guitar https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=386170&sid=688bf70493e86d3631f80ac5ab6c4891
Here is a recording of Ernest playing the guitar https://open.spotify.com/artist/2ECiIJ3Sydq741znF8WPUP
People on the forum have mused about a diminished tuning before and basically have been talked out of it by people. This thread is one I am referring to. This is the exact tuning I use, only 8 string.G-A#-C#-E-G-A#-C#-E https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27768&sid=2abde8cdf172282645d6bd63718339b3
I explain the tuning in this long rambling thread I wrote when I first started playing it and realized it works. I would probably write it a bit differently now. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=3137278
I have actually come a long way with the tuning and it actually pairs very well with the other concept people love to hate, stacked pedals. The tradeoff of this tuning is it takes footwork. The benefits are worth the extra effort in my opinion. There are many reasons why this tuning works. On the surface, I understand why people are skeptical and that's fine. You have your way I have mine, no problems. I actually love E9 pedal tuning and there is a lot of that sound that is not really possible with this tuning. I think a diminished approach is better for C6 type playing. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 13 Jul 2024 6:40 am
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Interesting Tim. In the posts you reference, b0b lee commented
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I see several problems with a diminished tuning. First of all, you must engage the changer to get any major or minor chords. Secondly, you can't tune it by harmonics (just intonation) - it won't come out right. So you're stuck with equal temperment which doesn't sound as good.
Lastly, it's really confusing to play without a conceptual key that moves up and down the fretboard. E9th players think of the 3rd fret as the "G fret". I think that a tuning without a key signature would be pretty confusing. |
How do address his issues? especially on tuning in ET? |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2024 7:50 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
Interesting Tim. In the posts you reference, b0b lee commented
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I see several problems with a diminished tuning. First of all, you must engage the changer to get any major or minor chords. Secondly, you can't tune it by harmonics (just intonation) - it won't come out right. So you're stuck with equal temperment which doesn't sound as good.
Lastly, it's really confusing to play without a conceptual key that moves up and down the fretboard. E9th players think of the 3rd fret as the "G fret". I think that a tuning without a key signature would be pretty confusing. |
How do address his issues? especially on tuning in ET? |
And b0b’s comment about E9 players think of the 3rd fret as the “G fret” sure rings true for me. Because I play guitar, it sure makes it easier to fly around the fretboard with some instinctive landing zones. Open D is close enough that it allows me the same familiarity.
My old top-knot requires extra coffee for other tunings.
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2024 10:02 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
Interesting Tim. In the posts you reference, b0b lee commented
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I see several problems with a diminished tuning. First of all, you must engage the changer to get any major or minor chords. Secondly, you can't tune it by harmonics (just intonation) - it won't come out right. So you're stuck with equal temperment which doesn't sound as good.
Lastly, it's really confusing to play without a conceptual key that moves up and down the fretboard. E9th players think of the 3rd fret as the "G fret". I think that a tuning without a key signature would be pretty confusing. |
How do address his issues? especially on tuning in ET? |
"First of all, you must engage the changer to get any major or minor chords."
I don't find this to be a big problem. Once you get used to it which takes a bit. I have arranged a bunch of songs with no diminished chords in them and the dim sound doesn't sneak in at all. I come from a Travis picking background so I mute the strings a lot and only let the notes I want to hear ring.
"Secondly, you can't tune it by harmonics (just intonation) - it won't come out right. So you're stuck with equal temperment which doesn't sound as good."
ET works fine, many steel players use it. I just use a clip tuner since my instrument is acoustic. So much of the subtle tuning is in the bar.
"Lastly, it's really confusing to play without a conceptual key that moves up and down the fretboard. E9th players think of the 3rd fret as the G fret. I think that a tuning without a key signature would be pretty confusing."
I don't see it as any different than playing guitar or violin etc, neither of which have a conceptual key that moves up and down. Diminished is the brown of the music world. Yes it begs to be resolved which you can use to your advantage. A diminished tuning is kind of the opposite of a 6th tuning which I have heard described as the most stable chord. Approaching 6th tunings from just outside of them, allows you to access all the inversions. As far as conceptualizing this tuning I think it has huge advantages over a tuning like the universal E9/B6 especially when you consider that for this copedant to work well you need at least 10 strings and really you need 12. You really only need 6 strings (I like 8 ) for a really functional Dim copedant. I am not trying to turn this into a my tuning is better than yours pissing match. I have the most respect for your tuning! But looking at some of the grip and chord charts you have posted for the Universal tuning sort of reminds me of looking up at the summit of Everest. I don't think I could do it. A couple of weeks ago I worked out the harmonized scales for a bunch of common scales Major/minor, Melodic minor, Harmonic minor and the Barry Harris major and minor diminished scales. Took a couple hours to get them on paper, challenging stuff, but I can already do it easier on steel than I can on guitar which I have played for 35 years. It is gonna take a long time to absorb, but I am confidant that this is a viable path forward.
Thanks for the interest this is a work in progress, kind of a lonely path, but for me it is rewarding. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 13 Jul 2024 11:09 am
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| Oh, I didn't realize until now you were playing an acoustic instrument. I understand the lonely but interesting path very well, having spent a few years playing a very obscure but powerful lapsteel tuning. and now I'm on to D13, an equally lonely path. Thanks for noticing the charts I posted. Shouldn't let them scare you, you can just pick a few voicings to practice. Other than Johnny Cox, I don't know anyone else playing the tuning as their main tuning. But that makes it exciting. And creates a unique voice. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Jul 2024 11:44 am
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IMO, the only thing that matters is whether or not the tuning works for what you ('editorial' you) want to do. In the end, it's the notes and placements that define the music. And that has a lot to do with how you can wrap your head around using the tuning.
Personally, I don't think I would find this approach at all intuitive. I think my issue is that steel guitar, and especially pedal steel, involves a straight bar that goes straight across the strings. Most any deviations (slants excepted) from that home chord, whatever it is, involve activating a pedal and/or lever. I would personally find it awkward to have what is, in my mind, a chord that generally requires resolution somewhere else, as my mental and physical 'home'. I get the point on the other thread about Pat Martino's visualizations. But I also note that Pat played standard guitar tuning. I guess my point is, the tuning doesn't make the player, the player makes the tuning.
As far as JI vs ET tuning goes - to me, that's one of the real beauties of steel guitar - the ability to attain nearly pure JI tuning for typical Western triadic harmony without the compromises required for a fixed-pitch instrument like piano. But I don't see why pedal/lever stops that lead to typical triads couldn't be made as much JI as one pleases. Or not, if that is your preference. I think the argument for JI is, for me, somewhat harder outside of the bounds of Western triadic harmony.
I haven't noticed anybody saying not to do this. And if people do, I would just carry on and not worry about it. Only you can decide, in time, how you want to proceed. And again, the proof is in the pudding. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2024 1:42 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
Personally, I don't think I would find this approach at all intuitive. I think my issue is that steel guitar, and especially pedal steel, involves a straight bar that goes straight across the strings. Most any deviations (slants excepted) from that home chord, whatever it is, involve activating a pedal and/or lever. I would personally find it awkward to have what is, in my mind, a chord that generally requires resolution somewhere else, as my mental and physical 'home'. I get the point on the other thread about Pat Martino's visualizations. But I also note that Pat played standard guitar tuning. I guess my point is, the tuning doesn't make the player, the player makes the tuning.
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I think the intuitiveness comes with the idea that the pedals correspond to the strings and that everything inverts 3 frets up or down (or 4 depending on how you think of it). Everything we play could be thought of as a pattern and can be inverted. If you learn one pattern, it can be applied anywhere, so you get a ton of mileage out of everything you learn. I am rarely thinking this chord is this or that, just listening to how the voices lead from one to the next. The fact that this is a symmetrical tuning and happens to be a chord that naturally inverts itself is very advantageous. The other very intuitive thing is there are very few avoid notes so the grips are very straightforward. The grips get more challenging when you start adding the raises in because I only have the raises in the upper octave so the lower octave becomes an avoid note usually.
I totally agree about the player makes the tuning. I think the most important thing to do is pick something and stick with it. For me it is this. I got into this because I really just couldn't wrap my head around what everyone else seems to be doing so I looked for another way.
Last edited by Tim Toberer on 16 Jul 2024 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2024 5:15 am
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One of my other musical passions is Irish Trad music and I have made a number of bagpipes including several half sets of Uilleann pipes, much to my wife's sadness. The best way that I have found to truly hear the effect of JI is to play a chanter against a drone. The reeds don't relax until you hit the perfect intervals. The only way I could think of that might solve this problem in a diminished tuning would be with a guitar like the Pagliere. I suppose maybe it could be programmed to change the tuning ever so slightly? The effect of JI is subtle, but powerful. It is almost like the notes hit you in a more emotional way. Not having this isn't a dealbreaker for me at all and I think it is more of an issue with E9 style of playing where you have those long sustaining bends ringing. Also with ET you are more in tune with other instruments.
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| Oh, I didn't realize until now you were playing an acoustic instrument. |
Yes I built a guitar to try this tuning. Really It started as an idea to just experiment with different chords and concepts. Roy Thompson built an acoustic lap steel, I think with the same idea in mind, using Alike tuning. Can't find the picture, beautiful guitar! I was doubtful my guitar would really work as an instrument, until I arranged my first tune, Sweet Leilani. This tuning is almost a physical incarnation of musical theory in my mind. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2024 6:06 am
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Thinking further about Dave's doubts about the intuitiveness of this tuning. I think this is the biggest misconception about it and I completely understand why. Why would you tune to probably the most unsettling chord in the musical language. If you strum across my tuning you get 7 stacked minor 3rds and 6 tritones. Ouch! I get it and I had my doubts as well. I will try to attempt to explain how I deal with this.
The main difference between my tuning and the original Tavares version is my guitar is capable of lowering as well as raising so completing the chromatic scale. I think this makes the tuning much easier to play because in the original version he had to depress 3 pedals at once to get a full 7th chord with a root. By raising a single note you get a 9th with no rt. (also m6th and half diminished) in his tuning. So establishing a root means pressing one lowering pedal for me. Easy enough. So now looking at the entire fretboard we can think of any note as a potential root. Once you have a root established all of your options and relationships become clear. If the root is on pedal 4 the root is on top, if the root is on pedal 1 the root is on the bottom. So if you want a Maj 6 chord you know you have to lower the Dominant 7, if you want a Major 7 you would raise it. I have been playing mostly solo with no backing track, so establishing a root is incredibly important. Once you have a root established you will also be aware of the available rootless voicings nearby and the likely next chord in the progression I-IV or ii-V, etc.,etc. Learning this tuning is very intuitive because you would want to start with just the 4 lowering pedals and you have all of the basics covered for every type of music. I mentioned I come from Travis style guitar playing and I think much the same way with this tuning. Travis style playing involves mostly full bar type chords.
This tuninig is challenging and probably not worth it if you are playing country or whatever. If you are into the deep ambient reverby sound of the steel, this is'nt the tuning for you. This tuning excels for Hawaiian, Western Swing/old timey jazz and with the addition of the raising pedals I think it can be used very effectively for more modern jazz. It is also excellent for solo playing. Over the last few days I have been trying to learn some of the tunes from the gorgeous Jack Richards recordings (my new favorite player!). I have been playing with some descending and ascending rhythm changes using tritone subs. which he does alot of. One really cool thing with this tuning is the tritone relationships are built right into the tuning, so if your 7th chord has a root on string 1 or 5 (pedal 4) your TT sub would have a root on 3 or 7 (pedal 2). This is a very good tuning for applying music theory! |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2024 9:24 am
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Other than 8 strings, I don’t know what your setup is, but with one pedal raising strings 7,6,3, and 2 a half-step you would be in major 6 mode. The open dim7 could be a V7alt one fret below or two frets above the maj6. Kind of a boogie in reverse, but it seems like it should work just fine.
Probably not the most effective way of thinking about the tuning 🤓 |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 Jul 2024 5:03 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
Other than 8 strings, I don’t know what your setup is, but with one pedal raising strings 7,6,3, and 2 a half-step you would be in major 6 mode. The open dim7 could be a V7alt one fret below or two frets above the maj6. Kind of a boogie in reverse, but it seems like it should work just fine.
Probably not the most effective way of thinking about the tuning 🤓 |
That's it, actually press any 2 pedals and you create a Maj6/min7/Maj9 (no rt.) Everything is always available very close by, you just have to find it. Then your rootless Maj 9 voicing is one fret up with the opposite pedals depressed. Here is an example of common Maj movements. Reminder pedals 1-4 are the lowering pedals. Pedals 5-8 are the raises in the upper octave only. The tuning is G-A#-C#-E-G-A#-C#-E
Open A6 is pedals 1&2 so A Maj9 (no rt.) is fret 1 pedals 3&4. AMaj6/9 would be pedals 1,2&6 in open position. AM7(13) is on 1,2&5 etc.
The melody is often on these whole step raises, and these are pretty easy pedal combos to hit compared to some. I use these all the time. You've got all 4 inversions of everything that takes 2 pedals. With 3 pedal chords some of the inversions aren't possible cause we only have 2 feet. This is why I went to a stacked pedal arrangement, I can get more of the complex inversions. Things get really nutty with the dominant chords. I am pondering a heel toe pedal setup because it would make even more combos possible, I just don't know if I want to do that. I am still figuring a lot of this stuff out trying to balance the ergonomics of coordinating all this. It is a lot to juggle but I think it is still easier than pipe organ. I think I could be happy with just the 4 lowering pedals and then use behind the bar pulls for the raises. It greatly simplifies the setup, but I want to see how far I can go into this wormhole. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 16 Jul 2024 5:19 am
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Tim, you're obviously doing very interesting work.
I admire the forward thinking and more importantly, the hands-on follow through with implementing your ideas into a tangible instrument.
After playing pedal steel for about 10 years, I became obsessed with tweaking and experimenting with tuning and copedent approaches. Some ideas were not great, but a lot of the experimenting has led to me having tunings and set ups that work for me and the stuff I do musically.
Like someone else said here - the proof is in the pudding. While this is true, sometimes a reminder from your peers to persevere can be helpful. This instrument is entirely the product of experimentation and curiosity whether one likes it or not.
Although a diminished open tuning is probably not my cup of tea, I can appreciate the possibilities it offers, and would love to hear some sound clips or see a video of your tuning in action.  |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2024 5:09 am
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| Andrew Frost wrote: |
Tim, you're obviously doing very interesting work.
I admire the forward thinking and more importantly, the hands-on follow through with implementing your ideas into a tangible instrument.
After playing pedal steel for about 10 years, I became obsessed with tweaking and experimenting with tuning and copedent approaches. Some ideas were not great, but a lot of the experimenting has led to me having tunings and set ups that work for me and the stuff I do musically.
Like someone else said here - the proof is in the pudding. While this is true, sometimes a reminder from your peers to persevere can be helpful. This instrument is entirely the product of experimentation and curiosity whether one likes it or not.
Although a diminished open tuning is probably not my cup of tea, I can appreciate the possibilities it offers, and would love to hear some sound clips or see a video of your tuning in action. |
I really appreciate that Andrew. I am trying to share my work with this tuning because I see huge potential with it, and while it probably doesn't sound appealing to many, for me it is the thing. If for some reason I couldn't continue maybe someone else in the future could use what I have learned so far. I would be interested to hear if anyone else out there is using a similar tuning. I am sort of baffled that no one to my knowledge has used it outside of the Tavares group. I am not sure what ever happened to Vince Akina, but he supposedly used the Freddie Tavares version on another homemade steel. I think he was a pretty well known player at one time. It seems he must have been performing way longer after the Tavares brothers were gone. I would love to find more recordings.
My ADD is really holding me back from sharing sounds. I really need to get a better practice regiment and get a few things down really well. The stacked pedal arrangement has set me back a bit because everything I learned before is a bit different now. The whole feel of the pedal setup is different, having the lowers on long extended pedals its a bit more awkward, but I am getting better. The instrument still need some refining and that can lead to weeks of it sitting on the bench. I also need to figure out an easy way to record and share the files. Probably better as a video. I will look into it. |
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