Music theory

Jeffrey McFadden · From: Missouri, USA

Members here talk of knowing music theory in conjunction with pedal steel playing, and yes, it's music theory, to the same extent as the finest meal ever prepared is dinner. For many to most of you, your knowledge of music theory is incredibly advanced and fully internalized.
Y'all, good pedal steel players (sadly I'm not counting myself here) are at least the equivalent of a Master's degree in music theory.
The very top level, the people who created pedal steel as we know it and people today creating more capable and more flexible tunings, and the very best players, have PhD level knowledge.
I'm not exaggerating.
I've studied music theory much of my life, but my first 15 years of music were as a flute player. One note at a time. None of this "stacked thirds" business.
Compared to people who develop tunings and copedents to solve musical objectives, who know on the fly that they're going to pass seamlessly through a series of major, minor, and more complex chords on their way to a resolution they already see - y'all, you're really something.
The pedal steel is never going away, any more than any other highly learned, highly skilled creative pastime, but it's going to remain the domain of a few. There's just so much to it.
I'm taking it on again, second try, just as I turn 77. I'm spending my free time now, studying, focused on learning the parts of music theory that I missed, while I wait for my 6 string, 2 pedal, 2 knee, pull release Sho Nuff pedal steel to be made and shipped here. I've got my C6 lap steel, and I know enough theory in my hands and ears now to play that whole neck in any key, but I don't begin to think I'm where I need to be. I'm trying to get a clearer image of, for instance, chord substitution, and rootless chords, and - y'all, I'm serious. Give yourself a pat on the back. You have mastered a highly complex technical system, and use this power for good, making music.
My hat is off to you.
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Eric Dahlhoff · From: Point Arena, California

Trying to play pedal steel is the most rewarding thing I've ever done. Weirdest too! And very addictive.
I wish I had started in my teens, instead of my 50's.
Good on you Jeffrey starting again!
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Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Rootless chords and substitutions are kinda the same. Chord substitions will be a lot easier for the ear to grasp and understand(to begin with) if the substituting chord is played in the form Root 3rd 5th from high to low altho the notes played will function/sound like something else once there is a different bass note underneath.

Example Root 3rd 5th, C E G will in most cases be a C major triad but once there is a low A note present those R 3 5 will most likely sound as b3rd 5th and b7th of an Aminor7th chord. If you play some inversion of that C triad then the connection to the Am7 might not neccessary sound so obvious.

Knowing how to play more than one instrument also makes it easier to get some insight into how the theory might work one way or the other.

There is always something to discover no matter how long one has been playing.

Once you understand something on your instrument, whatever instrument it may be, then that knowledge/understanding is beautiful Smile

I dig both the E9 and the C6 as I discover things on one neck that can be applied to the other neck or even other instruments as well.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Bill McCloskey · Posted 10 Jul 2024 6:05 am

Music theory starts by knowing your fretboard. When approaching a new tuning or copedent I like to map all the possible pedal/lever combinations and identify all the possible Triads (maj, min, dim, aug) and then work my way through the 7th chords. You can see an example in the D13 thread I started. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=401803&highlight=

Theory is meaningless if you can't apply it to your steel. Start by studying the neck.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

The pedal steel guitarist has certainly chosen a difficult instrument to play. Considering how laborious (yet gratifying) it is to accomplish even a simple harmonized scale in accurate musical time, the drive to continue moving forward is strong, however painstakingly slow the results come for most.

I don’t believe the level of music theory required is any greater for the mastery of the pedal steel than it is for any other polyphonic instrument, or for a composer of orchestral pieces, or an arranger for a pop music group. Additionally, many players seem to get by, and perhaps even excel, not knowing what in the heck they’re doing theory-wise, but have an innate sense for finding and executing the right sound.

I do think it is appropriate to acknowledge that the instrument is designed to accommodate the player’s motivation to explore the harmonic, rhythmic, and melodic possibilities available to any other generally accepted musical instrument. The ones that do manage to make what would be considered great music on any instrument have indeed accomplished an insurmountable feat for the majority who make the attempt.

Jon Voth · From: Virginia, USA

Hey Jeffrey my hat is off to you as well.

I've degrees in music and been in years of theory classes but like you and the flute, playing tuba professionally for nearly 30 years, it's all single notes and mostly roots all the time. It's all there when you play in a small ensemble (hearing chords, talking about tuning, etc.) but becomes easier to turn off your brain when you play the same stuff over time.

Starting PSG at age 49 or so has been an experience; a re-awakening of concepts I studied decades ago in school. It's more complex than I am at the moment. I consider it a hedge against impending dementia. I'd rather do this that learn chess or some other language. Hats off to those who really know their instrument.

Now if it just wasn't so hard to play physically.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I had a very privileged start in musical life, because there was a piano in the house, and although I never wanted to learn to play it, all the notes were laid out there to touch and listen to, and stacking thirds was like musical toy bricks. Also my mother made sure I could read and write before I started school, and that included music. As a result I can't recall not knowing key signatures and the names of chords and what notes they contain.
And like Jeffrey I went out into the world and played trombone and bass and always knew what was going on.
The problem with the PSG is that it's 3-dimensional. You can learn the fretboard on a guitar or bass (and all the alternate slide positions on a trombone), and you can always find those notes where you left them.
But the PSG is a stack of different fretboards, one for each pedal/lever combination. I haven't calculated a total but even on basic E9 it's a lot, so if your theoretical knowledge suddenly seems lacking, don't panic! Bach himself would have been equally confused Smile

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Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

“First you learn the instrument, then you learn the music, then you forget all that s**t and just play.” - Charlie Parker

Music theory is like mathematics in that it is a system built for the human brain that tries describe something in nature. Although I can't imagine a mathematician who doesn't care about numbers! Some people seem to be able to play just fine without theory.

The problem as I see it with pedal steel guitar is that we inherit tuning-system developed by people for the specific type of music they were playing, mostly country for E9 and Hawaiian and jazz for C6 mostly. The universal system is better, but still not perfect and still evolving. Changing the tuning mechanics of the guitar is well beyond most people who just want to play. New players are forced into the system that the guitar they have was designed for, which is not standardized. Most people assume that the C6/E9 systems are the best for the instrument, and it certainly is if you want to learn the classic licks and tunes. While they cover a lot of territory there is a whole world outside of them that should be explored. For me I find my diminished tuning makes more sense. I didn't want to be chained to a specific tonal center. This tuning requires more complicated footwork, but it opens up more possibilities. No classical instruments that I know of are tuned to a specific chord. Stacks of minor 3rds make sense because a complete chromatic scale can be achieved with half steps up or down.

It is a shame that pedal steel guitars are not built to allow the easy change of tuning, like the early Fenders or even the Harlin Bros Multichord. The organic nature of the instrument is chained to the rigid mechanics of its design. As you play it seems completely natural that you want to slowly design the instrument to meet your own specific way of thinking and playing, but this is a luxury most people don't have. The cost is out of reach for most people to justify taking up the instrument and the wackiness of it is enough to frustrate even the most competent musician! That said I can't think of a better instrument for learning music theory besides the pianoforte.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

One has to know or find out WHAT to know.

To me, yes, organizing the fretboard is first, but also is an ongoing never ending expeditions which goes deeper than even entering the jungle of psychoanalysis.
then too, it's a different approach on E9th than C6th because on C6th things can be learned "static", while E9th everything starts "moving" from the very beginning.

"Functional Harmony" is to me one of the most pivotal, useful and near immediately enjoyable "theorIES".
Hand in hand with that, at least for Jazz, is becoming aware that a tune in one key, still may have segments in other key-centers.

And yes, "TheorIES" it's plural because else, it would be called "Law of Physics". And while music is closely related, but really only related, to physics, emotions, feelings and tastes and degrees of tolerances as well as geo-cultural traditions vary, it opens endless opportunities to "gracefully" fall off that (physics) band wagon at every turn.
Theories are not much more than well explained opinions, and may even get really, really close to the hard fact, until some BB or a King comes along and plays that note, that just touches us all and is nowhere to be found on a keyboard, and proves all theories to be, well, just that, TheorIES.

To my son's displeasure, I often refer to keyboards as "that 1-Dimensional instrument". It goes only from left to right, ONE axis.
Stringed instruments like ours are at least 2-Dimensional (along & across the strings) and when you got pedals, one can view it almost as 3 dimensional. It's VERY graphic, while a sax or flute or singing is not. Additionally, our instrument is tuned in chords, and while wind players tend to think in scales, it would SEEM more coherent for us to think off chords and their alterations and morphing into other chords. Our perspective of theorIES may be different than the one of not only other music stiles but also instruments.

TheorIES should be explanatory, simplifying (evidencing a clearer way to resolve doubts) and helpful and thus enjoyable, rather than "intellectual"-spaghetti of fancy concepts and confusing. Beware what you are being taught / beware what you are studying!

Learn to analyze chord progressions.
Get a Bass Guitar or learn to play rhythm guitar along the whole neck, if keys is something you shy away from!

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Jeffrey McFadden · From: Missouri, USA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I am very happy my pedal steel is not tuned to stacked minor thirds.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Diminished chords are a bit depressing.
I think your message should have read
"I am very happy. My pedal steel is not tuned to stacked minor thirds."
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Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I'm not dissing Tim's tuning either. I'm always interested in new ideas, and the notion that the pedal steel is done being invented is ridiculous.

But I'm no longer interested in experiments. Having settled on a tuning that makes sense to me (B6/E9 with P6 on a lever), I intend to see how far I can go in the time I have left (family history suggests I may not live much beyond 90).

I know this is supposed to be a theory thread. My theory is that once music gets hold of you it never lets go...
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Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

The dim chord is indeed mysterious, with the magical property that any of its four tones is a valid leading note (including to another dim), so it's a powerful musical tool if used sparingly, hideously melodramatic if not.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
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J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I think pedal steel players (BE-C6th setup) tend play the diminished chord "over-voiced"... meaning that they stomp on the "diminished" pedals (5&6) and play 4 notes, all a minor third apart instead of just alluding it. In most cases, the diminished is being played over a Dom7th chord with the diminished chord's root a half step over the Dom7th chord's root... really playing the Dom7th as a b9th (the root sharp half). Just THAT note alone is often all it takes to create that tension and add to the satisfaction of "resolution" a 4th up.
Less, but still perceivable than an augmented (stack of Major 3rds), the diminished stack of minor thirds won't tune well "JI". It's easier to take it as "acceptabl" in ET than it's augmented counter part. One more reason to either widen the intervals or just allude to it playing the important note (b9th).
Barry Harrys' Maj6thDim harmonic approach can easily be reproduced on C6th PSG but it sounds muddy and "old" quickly.

Still, to me, navigating the diminished concept of "Family Of Four Chords" (the 4 Dominant chords each, any of the 3 possible Diminished chords can allude to) and playing what Barry Harrys suggested is NOT a "Whole-Half" or "Half-Whole" scale but rather two diminished arpeggios in parallel a half or respectively a whole step of each others, has become the connective tissue and gateway to "Altered" at the same time.

In most cases, it tends to sound plumb or even dumb to approach a new chord playing the root, the exception to me are diminished and also the half diminished, two chords with only one note difference (bb7th / b7th respectively) which have totally different functions.

I've told this before:
My father in law, is a live long professional piano player. He can't read, he wouldn't know what I'd mean if I'd say "four chord" or "the five", "ii-, V, I" is not a concept that would ring a bell either. He just plays, ANY and EVERYthing... and can learn a tune in 5 minutes. 5 years ago, I was practicing guitar rhythm to one of the more complex Jazz Standards (I forgot which one) and he walked in and said "I like it!", "what is it called?"... He sat at the piano, and declared never to have played it, because "nobody plays it" and asked me to show him. I sat closer and inadvertently must have moved on the neck and proceded to strum and hum the tune and he'd pick it up and before we were thru, he was already "running with it". It's then only that I realized that I had showed it to him "off key" in some stupid key like C# or something. And that really made me realize he could not have ever played it, not in THAT key anyways.
So, I asked him how he goes about it. He always plays pretty much in the middle of the keyboard, both hands fairly close to another... he has these big "paws" and it looks like he is "kneading" the keys, while just looking up 15 degrees and making what BB King would call "oninon-faces" with his mouth.
So, I asked him and he kept kneading the keys looking up really seeming to find an answer and then said:
"I don't know, I look out for STRANGE tones/notes!"
I was rather disappointed because there didn't seem to be any educational value in that answer, so I pressed on and he added:
"I don't know, all diminished somehow".
By that time I had had it, fed up and gave up on extracting anything of value from this man.

3 years later, as I progressed (at least I'd like to think so) in my Jazz studies, it dawned on me:
"Strange tones" means "Altered"
And yes, the connective tissue, is the two parallel running diminished arpeggios a half, respectively whole step away from each other. I am pretty sure, that's what he really tried to describe.

It's seems elusive to try to convey these concepts in words at times, worse even written format. Sorry.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Mike Preuss · From: Mount Vernon, Washington, USA

I appreciate how we all come at this from different lenses or perspectives. Some major, some pentatonic, some diminished, or whatever! It is inexplicably a personal relationship between the musician and their instrument. And it is also a journey. A journey that connects us all as humans trying to relate via music. Does it get any cooler than that!? What an amazing language!

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Interesting thread. As an obsessive theory lover, its funny to me that what really seems to make the phone ring is being able to play stuff that is not terribly complex on paper, but just enhances the vibe of a recording or performance. Stuff that lifts and augments a musical situation without drawing too much attention to itself. With all the complexity of this beautiful instrument, playing a couple of well timed notes, in tune and with good tone, seems to be what we end up doing more often than not.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

A, C, and E walk into a bar. Bartender looks at them and says, “Sorry, we don’t serve minors here.”
On the way out, A glares at C and scolds, “I told you to look sharp!”

For cowboy horn sections—-
Q: How is a bull different from an orchestra?
A: In an orchestra, the horns are in the back and the asshole is in the front.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

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