Fender Tone Master Deluxe or Twin?

Paul Seager · From: Augsburg, Germany

Hi, looking for some experience / guidance on these Fender amps. Given the much-commented closeness to their tube originals, your comments may come from using either variant.

I play a Stringmaster T8, some E9 PSG and a National tricone. I currently use a DV Mark Little Jazz (1x 8" speaker) but lately it seems to running out of steam. I've tried adding a borrowed 1x⁷12" extension box and I like it but it's more to haul, so I am considering replacing it with a Tone Master amp.

I briefly owned a silver-face Deluxe when I started steel but found it too loud (volume set on 2!) With hindsight, I was probably
a) too self-conscious about my playing then and;
b) had no experience of tube amps. I played bass before and solid state was my choice.

I've seen many videos praising both TM models and my instinct is for the Deluxe but a buddy is pushing me to the Twin. His reasoning is that the price difference (about 200€) and weight increase (4 Kg) is a small comprise for a big increase in performance. I've seen / heard tube Twins in action in rock bands and know they are incredibly loud! Hence my hesitation.

I play western swing (with low volume guitar, bass, drummer with brushes) and some country (guitar, bass and ... accordion!) Most of my gigs are small bars and cafes, maximum 100 people, largest perhaps 50 sq.meters in size. Occasionally I do outdoor gigs in beer gardens but nothing bigger than where the farthest seating is 20 metres from the stage.

Regarding tunings, the lowest note on any of these instruments is equivalent to a standard guitar's low E. I rarely use overdrive or distortion.

Can you see any argument to go for a Twin?
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\paul

Bayern Hawaiians: https://www.youtube.com/@diebayernhawaiians3062
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Brad Bechtel · From: San Francisco, CA

I think the Deluxe Reverb would be a better choice, given your style and current amp usage. It's also smaller than the Twin.
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Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

I have owned a TM Twin for a year or two now, and use it exclusively at home for pedal steel and electric guitar. It sounds great (but you do need to download the updated firmware with the improved reverb) with both, and the the different power settings means you can get it to break up like a smaller amp even at bedroom levels,

For the extra Euros you get a lot more power/headroom, another speaker and a midrange pot, with only a small sacrifice in weight and size. That is money well spent, in my opinion.

(I had an all-tube 65 Deluxe reissue before, and that was NOT powerful enough for pedal steel.)

Paul Seager · From: Augsburg, Germany

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

I felt that it distorted easily even at home levels. Some would find that desirable for electric guitar or lap steel, but maybe not for PSG. Personally, I loathe distortion in all forms. I want things squeaky clean at all times, so it wasn't for me. You can always add a bit of dirt to a clean amp with a stomp box, but if your amp is a bit dirty you're stuck.

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

Guys commenting on pedal steel power needs apparently did not read the post. The OP plays a Stringmaster and found a standard Deluxe Reverb too loud on 2. He plays in a low volume combo. So why would he want an even louder amp? I played a Twin for many years when I played pedal steel. Now I mostly play straight steel, including a Stringmaster, and a Twin would be overkill. Like choosing a Ferrari to go get groceries.

Although the Twin is not much more weight or cost, it is more bulky compared to the DR. The DR is going to be much more manageable to carry and takes a smaller footprint on stage. Both the Twin and the DR Tone Masters have an attenuator built in to reduce the power output, so the concerns about them being too loud are resolved either way. The main differences are max volume and size, and the extra volume from the Twin is not needed in this scenario. I play tweed amps with my Stringmaster, but if I had to pick a Tone Master, the Deluxe Reverb would be my choice.

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

Tim: The original post states "some E9 PSG". Who hasn't read the post?

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

Tim's right. A volume pedal is (arguably) optional for non-pedal steel and not often used at all by six-stringers; under those conditions a little grit is desirable, and controllable grit even more so. Pedal steel has a lot more note clusters and chords going on simultaneously and it all has to be as clear and non-gritty as you can get it. As I understand Tone-Masters the attenuator on the back will give you as much distortion as you can stand. It appears to me that a Deluxe-Reverb at 22 watts RMS is going to run out of headroom fairly quickly in any kind of higher-energy stage situation and that a Twin will cover everything one might need from an amp, albeit with more expense and a bit less convenience. To me the trade-off would be worth the bother.YMMV Winking

Paul Seager · From: Augsburg, Germany

Ok, now I get it. Tim, Dave, I'm definitely in the category of not using a Volume pedal for normal steel and find that element of PSG playing very challenging! I've only played 2 gigs with PSG and guess that way of thinking, of needing more power via the volume pedal, isn't in my mindset yet. But I can see Per's point and share his dislike of overdrive on steel.

To return to my comment, of the volume being too loud at 2, it may have been a feature of that particular DR but the volume difference between 1 and 2 was huge (and freaked me out somewhat). Hence I've kept clear of Fenders ever since! Stupid, I know!

But size / weight is a consideration; I live in a European city, compact and good public transport. I very often pack my gear on a bicycle and ride to a gig (not with PSG though!). So yeah, the bulk factor is important.

Obviously I am going to try both amps for tone and Per's comment on upgrading the SW, yeah, I've read several times on other sites.

Thanks all, I've learnt a lot already.
_________________
\paul

Bayern Hawaiians: https://www.youtube.com/@diebayernhawaiians3062
Other stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@paulseager3796/videos

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

Norbert Dengler · From: germany

I use a TM Deluxe all the time with a well booked swiss country band.
we play pretty strictly country, small to large venues.
I never had any issues with lacking headroom, most of the time i use the 12 W setting. I still have my Silverface Twin and a Silverface Deluxe, both great, but the easy to carry TM Deluxe goes out for work exclusively.
Great Amp!

Paul Seager · From: Augsburg, Germany

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

Let us know your thoughts and what you decide! Winking

Norbert Dengler · From: germany

Paul, I play mainly steel these days but also telecaster on some songs, even banjo
To me there’s enough headroom on the amp, others might disagree
Great thing is the XLR out so I don’t even need a microphone anymore

Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

I have both a Little Jazz and a TM Deluxe (and a Milkman 100, my primary amp). The Little Jazz is more convenient than the TM Deluxe. It's not just about weight, it's about size. When I really want grab-and-go and don't need volume and power, the Little Jazz is what I prefer. The Deluxe is capable of being considerably louder, can do slightly-dirty tones that are great for guitar (or lap steel), and sounds explicitly Fender-y.

The Milkman into a 1x12 JBL is heavier than the Deluxe, but smaller (at least with my cab). It comfortably beats both the Deluxe and the Little Jazz for sheer tone. That said, the Deluxe and Little Jazz are both very satisfying tonally. All three are keepers.
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Paul Seager · From: Augsburg, Germany

It's a Twin!

I spent a morning in my local music store (Music World Augsburg) with a TM Deluxe and Twin. I warned the shop in advance that I'd be bringing a console steel and PSG and asked that they set aside some space for me. This they willingly did (despite having never seen the likes of either instrument!) I took a buddy with me, he plays lap and Pedal steel, as well as a Tele and baritone guitars and he bought the silverface Deluxe (mentioned in my earlier post) from me when I declared it too loud. In the store he told me that he found that particular Deluxe too hot for steel and used it only for his Tele, reserving a Boss Katana for steel duties.

We started with the '64 Stringmaster T8 and Deluxe. The amp's attenuator on full; Guitar volume fully open, tone control just a little open. Love at first pluck! With the amp's Bass at 7, Treble and Reverb at 4, wow! We increased the Volume to 2 and I worried that my silverface experience would be repeated. Not so, the volume increase was gradual so we went up to 3. Now it was loud but not deafeningly so and one could hear the first signs of natural overdrive. At 4 overdrive was very apparent and while certainly not unpleasant, not the tone that I prefer. As the manufacturer claims, going down on the attenuator retains the tone and just reduces the volume so it seemed we'd hit the headroom. We switched to PSG, a WBS Basic E9 and at 4 the overdrive was too much for a PSG tone. We went down to 3 and then 2 to get a clean sound (equally wonderful btw!). So far it was guitar to amp so we added a Goodrich VP between them to reduce the initial volume and use for a sustain effect. This helped conrtol the overdrive but there was no way the Deluxe could go above 4 without begining to overdrive. Pity because both instruments sounded instantly at home with this amp.

The Twin was not an "instant wow" and it took a little longer to find a similar tone. Less bass and more treble, no middle and we were agreed this was a good clean PSG sound. We upped the volume to 3, 4 then 5 (my buddy left the room) and at 6 the amp was very loud but still clean. We switched to the Stringmaster and again, a different tone to the Deluxe, needing more tweeking but still wonderful and clean. The Middle control didn't do what I expected, ie., to add a nasal tone, it seemed to effect more in the upper midrange. I need to play with this some more but I was already confident that the Twin could deliver on clean tone and of course volume.

We spent some time deliberating, would I really need that amount of volume and both concluded "probably not". If I was a guitarist the Deluxe would win hands down, so sweet! But, that the Twin just kept delivering more volume and stayed clean, was a swaying argument.

Another factor we discussed was "spread". A band is like a long marriage and there are things your musical buddies do that annoy but you tolerate them! I play with a guitarist who sits his amp directly behind him and sets it only so loud as he wants. If you ask him to turn up (surprisingly for a guitarist!) he refuses, "it'll be too loud for me". Our bass-man, on upright, does not stand where he should ie., at the back, next to the drummer. He likes to be smack in the middle, actually blocking line of site and sound between me and aforementioned guitarist. Consequently I have to either turn up or simply move my amp to audibly cirum-navigate the bulk of man and bass. I've read that a Twin is far less directional than a Deluxe and certainly my Little Jazz (closed-back, 1x8") so let's see! (Alternatively I'll hire a dwarf on Uke-Bass)

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

I'm a firm believer in the tonemaster twin. I sometimes take other amps to gigs, but when there is any question about what to bring, the twin goes in the car. In fact, I like it so much I bought a second to leave at my monthly gig (yes, it's only 33 lbs. Yes, I'm THAT lazy.)

But here's an interesting issue that may have to do with the amp, and for which I recently heard an interesting theory. I am almost entirely a PSG player. I play dobro as well on some gigs (which sounds surprisingly passable through the Twin in an emergency). I only play tele on one gig, where someone else plays steel. It's a monthly spot at an outdoor beer garden. Lately, we have been running into an issue where the low G (string 6) on my tele, along with the acoustic guitar (through a loudbox) and the bass drum form a terrible boom on stage. The bass player just stops playing when we get there because his bass would be superfluous. It's that bad. Some of this is probably my tele, although it has the pickups lowered significantly on the bass side. Some of it is just an unfortunate sympathetic cosmic resonance among the offending instruments. But some of it may be the amp. I tried putting it up on an amp stand at the last gig, but that did nothing. There are a number of ways to address this (separate the instruments; hit that note on my tele with a 98hz cut on a parametric eq; play everything in Ab (just kidding); lower the stage volume and beef the tele up in the PA), and I will work through them systematically at our remaining shows there this season.

I was mentioning this to a gear/tech savvy friend at another gig recently, who owns a music store and is always trying to convince me to try (um, purchase!)the TM deluxe, and he had an interesting take. He theorizes that in the Tonemasters, and any amp with class D power amps, there is no low end drop off the way there is on an amp with a transformer. (Hence his belief that a TM Deluxe would be better for psg than a tube Deluxe.) I didn't understand the details of this theory, but it is notable that I don't get the low G boom (or don't get nearly as much) when I use my 40w tube amp.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Class D amps don't have the limited bandpass of transformer-coupled designs, but (1) the TM emulation software supposedly mimics the transformer response and (2) a low G on a six string guitar is nowhere near the low frequency limit of a transformer.

It sounds to me more like the lows of the kick drum mic(?) and/or acoustic guitar are close to feeding back and your low G note is adding enough at that frequency to trigger a resonance on stage, which is then picked up by mics and the acoustic guitar body and fed back. Before making changes to your rig turn everything else off and see if the problem is in fact your amp and not something else. It could be as simple as poor eq settings on an acoustic guitar amp, mixer channel, or monitor mix.

Small venues require more eq to tame than large spaces because of the shorter and more numerous reflections from walls and ceiling. Low frequencies in particular can be all over the place. For this reason we tune the PA lows using the kick drum before every gig, also checking the mids and highs using vocal mics, finding the hot spots and turning them down with the master 1/3 octave eq until the ringing stops. Every venue requires a different low end eq, while the mids and highs tend to stay more or less the same unless there are very low ceilings. Fortunately with today's digital mixers we can now simply store and recall settings for each venue instead of keeping a list of settings as we did in the last century.

Hope this helps! Where is this gig? I might bring Buddy up to see you and take a listen one of these days. Keep us posted.

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

I have the TM Twin because I get a mid control that way. You can power it down to 22.5 watts which is the Deluxe volume and it works great.
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Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Dave, good thoughts. I wish our sound checks were that professional and organized. We have some clown running sound. Dan someone or other... Rolling Eyes

Gig is in Exeter NH, a bit of a hike from you(!). But here's the FB event page.

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