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Topic: 4th String Zing |
Fred Rogan
From:
Birmingham, AL USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2018 1:43 pm |
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Just another vote that it's the string not the finger causing the zing. On both my Williams after about 3 months the 4th string starts the zing thing. I change it and no more zing- for 3 months or so. I'm no metallurgical guru but it seems to me it has something to do with the gauge and the effects of string deadening. Plus I'd personally rather change a string than take something abrasive to a finger. It would be different if changing the string did not correct the problem.
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Show Pro SD10 guitars
Milkman Amps |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 2 May 2024 6:52 am
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My 1983 Zumsteel has an intermittent sitar-like resonance that occasionally makes strings 3 and 4 unusable. When the string is picked a high harmonic will increase in volume as the fundamental note decays, particularly when the bar is between the 8th and 14th frets. I have followed all the advice contained here and elsewhere, removing finger grooves, changing strings, oiling the roller nuts, even taping or wrapping raise helper and lower springs, but just when I think it had been sorted the problem pops up again, often at the worst possible moment. I doubt it is a roller nut gauge issue as it persists even when barring individual strings with the bullet nose. The maddening thing is that the guitar is sounding great and then this zing will suddenly appear mid-session and no matter what I do will not go away, but the next day all is as it ought to be, making it extremely hard to track down.
Although changing strings had not helped in the past I have ordered a few sets of Stringjoy strings to see if that makes any difference. When I put them on I will re-examine the nut rollers and polish the changer fingers some more, but so far the solution has eluded me. Any and all wisdom regarding this phenomenon will be gratefully accepted. |
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memphislim
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 2 May 2024 3:45 pm
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Try rotating the rollers a little at a time until it goes away. Usually works for me. You can also take the string out of the nut roller grove and and put on edge or off to the side to see if it goes away. If so you know the roller is causing it.
Also, did you try the string wrap at the ball end flip mentioned earlier in the thread? |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 2 May 2024 4:01 pm
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| memphislim wrote: |
Try rotating the rollers a little at a time until it goes away. Usually works for me. You can also take the string out of the nut roller grove and and put on edge or off to the side to see if it goes away. If so you know the roller is causing it.
Also, did you try the string wrap at the ball end flip mentioned earlier in the thread? |
I always seat the string with the smooth part of the wrap against the finger, too many strings break when the nub of the wrap is against the finger. I re-oiled the nut rollers last night and it didn't seem to help, but when I went back to work on it this morning the zing was gone, I concluded that maybe the oil had spread out a bit overnight and cured the issue, but I have thought it fixed before only to have it return mid-session without warning. So far so good, tomorrow is a new day, when the Stringjoy set gets here I will polish the fingers some more and try to measure the nut roller gaps. I don't have a micrometer but do have a decent caliper on hand, so we shall see. In any case I picked up a few valuable tips from this thread. Film at eleven... |
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John Hyland
From:
South Australia
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Posted 2 May 2024 6:09 pm
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
| I don't know if this is the same "zing" you are talking about or not. I played an Emmons push/pull guitar for about 15 years and the 4th string had "issues" from the day I got it. Starting at about the 8th fret and going up to about the 14th fret I would get a very annoying ringing harmonic note that was very difficult to work around. If there was anything wrong with the changer finger, it would have been something done at Emmons, because it had that problem when I got it. I would usually have to change that string several times until I found one that caused the least amount of ring to it. Later, when I bought my current guitar (Mullen) I noticed it had the same "issue". This is a guitar with perfectly smooth, anodized fingers. That ringing stopped when I changed to Jagwire strings. |
Sometime a harmonic ring can come from vibration of the string on the nut side of the bar. Damping with fingers help but I suspect it is either strings or the nut roller in those instances. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 2 May 2024 6:45 pm
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Once you have this issue, it's hard to unhear as you're always in fear of it. I started noticing it on my Mullen PRP nearly 30 yrs. ago and have been aware of/or heard it on every keyed guitar I've had since.
The obvious thing, putting the 4th string in tune with it's neighbors is an absolute must. I tried putting some plastic between the string and the finger and that did it, but when I played outdoors mic'ed to the PA the string sounded really weak and attenuated compared to the other strings, so that's out.
Since I play D10s, I often check the sound of the 2nd string E on the back neck against the E9 4th. I've found they have a different timbre...no zing on the back E. This sets me to wondering if the position in the keyhead has something to do with the resonance.
I remember seeing a ZB with a post or device in the peghead between the 4th string key and the nut. Also, players, including myself, lacing a big rubber band through the strings. As I recall, it didn't make much difference, if any.
As stated, I find that putting a #15 ga. string on the 4th helps.
Generally, I don't notice it much, if at all, when playing with the band. It's mostly in the solitude of my music room.
On the subject of ball end twists, here is a quote from an old post of mine that sort of sums up my thoughts about a better design. Something I'd like to see someone like Stringjoy who winds their own strings, implement.
| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
Yes, I think most plain steel guitar strings have the long twists same as regular guitar strings. Exceptions might be, but only for the 3rd string, that Jagwire used to market as a "short twist", making the end barb and twist stay off the changer finger radius. It's not as big a problem with the wound strings.
I talked to Sid Hudson, proprietor of the fabulous Live Steel Strings company about this situation some time back and he promised to look into having his mfg. reduce the twist length.
Several years ago, when David McKnight was selling the original Jagwire strings, they came with a coiled wrap rather than a twist as shown in the photo below of a .020 ga. plain string in the 6th string position on the changer, as is the coiled .020 plain lying there on the pink thing.
If I'd been smart, I would have bought a couple dozen sets for both necks at that time. As I stated, it's been several years so I don't recall longevity or tone characteristics, but for sure they were lots easier on the fingers.
The current Jagwires are not like this and do have the twisted ends.
I have inquired about having a distributor research who made these coiled windings, but never heard anything back from anyone.
Seems to me because the end wrap rests on the finger, it could lead to premature breakage. Also the twists and sharp barbs can deform and gouge a soft aluminum finger, but that's the way they've always been to my knowledge save the few exceptions noted.
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 May 2024 8:43 am
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| Jerry you mention that the zing has been an issue on every keyed-head guitar you’ve played. Does keyless take care of it? That would seem to negate most of the commentary here. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 3 May 2024 9:11 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Jerry you mention that the zing has been an issue on every keyed-head guitar you’ve played. Does keyless take care of it? That would seem to negate most of the commentary here. |
Fred- I experience this with my keyless guitar.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 3 May 2024 11:42 am
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| Been a while since I've owned any of my keyless guitars but as I recall it does lessen the effect. I just don't remeber wheether it completely eliminated it. Lamar, 2,3 sierra scm14SE crown 25s, williams 400 keyless, probably others that I've forgotten. I just don't recall having the issue with those guitars. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 May 2024 12:56 pm
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Well dang. Thought we were on to something. Okay, thanks Jerry & Lee.
I have owned two other pedal steels, and they both suffer the affliction, but the dreaded zing has not presented yet on my 3-yo Williams 700. One of the reasons I settled on it when I was shopping was because of the changer design. It looked like it was a declaration of war on string wear and tear. Thus far, strings are winning. I also use D’Addarrio NYXL’s, which may have something to do with the performance. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 3 May 2024 2:52 pm
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The zing problem on the 4th string can show up on about any guitar.
Most modern guitars have rounded top fingers on the changer, In about a 3/8" radius the string angle changes by 90 degrees.
Now the 4th E string, Bent at this 90 degree angle, The string is tuned to E. Then, The string is lowered to D# on a knee lever, And raised to F on another knee lever, And then step on the C pedal and it is raised to F#. This continuous bending in a small area, Changes the structure of the steel in the string, And as the metal "Work Hardens". It looses its flex ability. It starts raising up off the finger, And the ZING Shows it ugly face. If continued being bent eventually the string will brake.
Another of those rules of Physics, Manufactures and Steel players must deal with.
Example:
If you are caught in a bad situation and need a piece of wire, And have no pliers. But have an adjustable Wrench, Just tighten the wrench on the wire, Bend the wire at about 90 degree angel and repeat the bend quickly several times, The Wire will "Work Harden" and break.
I played an E9th 10 string and used the same strings for about 20 years, Never had a problem with the Zing Thing. I at present have a GFI Keyed with nut rollers, And a GFI Keyless with a solid rod for nut, At about 25 days both guitars get the 4th string ZING.
Over the years some guitars had rollers in front of the changer, And string ball just hooked on changer finger, Not bent over it. And Williams has the slight, Like 22.5 angel on the top of the changer fingers, So the string is not stressed as much in the bend, May help with preventing ZING.
I will get off my soap box and get back in my cage. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 15 Jun 2024 8:14 pm
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Jerry mentioned using a .015 string for the 4th string E.
Will it survive the pull up to F#?
I have never encountered the mysterious ringing phenomenon on the second string, even when raised up to E.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 15 Jun 2024 8:27 pm
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
Jerry mentioned using a .015 string for the 4th string E.
Will it survive the pull up to F#?
I have never encountered the mysterious ringing phenomenon on the second string, even when raised up to E. |
Yes, no problem with F#. Several players use a .015 on 4. Paul Franklin, for one, does or did.
Same for me concerning the second string. I only hear the phenomenon on the 4th string. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 19 Jun 2024 12:23 pm
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Good New / Bad News
Good News: I found a vagrant .015 in my stash-o-strings. It was a Steel Mill string that Frenchy used to market.
It tuned up just fine to F#. I let it sit there overnight and finished tuning it, open E and raised to F#.
It sounded great. No strange harmonic ringing. I could feel just a tad more tension, but I didn't have any problems with timing the pull with the 5th string pull from B to C#.
Bad News: A couple of days later, I sat down to play the guitar and when I pressed the third pedal the note went right up to F# to then went completely slack.
The windings down at the ball end had loosened and that was the end of that. There were only 2 windings left.
~Lee |
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John Hyland
From:
South Australia
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Posted 19 Jun 2024 12:37 pm
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
Good New / Bad News
Good News: I found a vagrant .015 in my stash-o-strings. It was a Steel Mill string that Frenchy used to market.
It tuned up just fine to F#. I let it sit there overnight and finished tuning it, open E and raised to F#.
It sounded great. No strange harmonic ringing. I could feel just a tad more tension, but I didn't have any problems with timing the pull with the 5th string pull from B to C#.
Bad News: A couple of days later, I sat down to play the guitar and when I pressed the third pedal the note went right up to F# to then went completely slack.
The windings down at the ball end had loosened and that was the end of that. There were only 2 windings left.
~Lee |
Sounds like a dud string. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 20 Jun 2024 8:33 am
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| Quote: |
| Sounds like a dud string. |
Much like my playing!
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 20 Jun 2024 8:36 am
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| Yeah, bad string. Never had that happen and I use a .015 all the time on the Carter. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 20 Jun 2024 11:16 am
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In all the decades I've been hacking away at this instrument, I've had this happen only twice.
Several years ago, a string did the same thing. It was an SIT.
This time, the string was one of the Steel Mill strings Frenchy used to sell. Coincidentally, I believe his strings were produced for him by SIT.
I've used SIT strings off and on for years and I used Frenchy's Steel Mill strings off and on for years. I like them both.
Oh well. The .015 sounded great for a couple of days!
~Lee |
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