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Tim Toberer


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Nebraska, USA
Post  Posted 4 May 2024 7:32 am    
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After reading the Ernest Tavares story articles I just posted, I remembered what Chris Scruggs said regarding the origins of C6 in the SGAC interview. I did a little search of the forum, and it seems to be accepted knowledge that Jerry Byrd invented C6 sometime in 1937. Apparently he claimed to "invent it", in one of his books? I am not trying to start an argument, I am just curious what does the evidence say? Here are the threads I found regarding this.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=169280
https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/004759.html

The thing that was buzzing in my head was, I remembered reading about Freddie Tavares using C6 on his recordings with the Royal Hawaiians. Here is the clip about this.

"According to his wife, Freddie Tavares bought a 6 string Black & White bakelite Rickenbacker steel guitar as soon as the model came on the market in July 1935, (serial number 003) removing the left front white cover to store his bar and picks (thumb and 3 finger) inside between dance sets. He used C6th tuning for Hapa-Haole and more modern Hawaiian songs, raising the A to B flat for a C 7th tuning when playing older Hawaiian songs. He also designed and built his own tube amplifiers and casings, building a second amp into each enclosure as a spare in case the main unit blew during a set."

Here is a the discography of the Harry Owens group featuring Freddie Tavares on steel guitar starting in April of 1937.
( Most of these recordings are on the Internet Archive (which is down for maintenance right now). I listened to a number of them and it sounds like Freddie is using a 6th type tuning, I hear minor triads at least. I was unable to find any evidence of JB using this tuning at this time. It just seems unlikely to me that Freddie learned this tuning from JB, and more likely that he developed this tuning in order to play along with the Owens Big Band. Of course we may never know. Could this be another "I wrote Steel Guitar Rag" situation?
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Joe A. Roberts


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Seoul, South Korea
Post  Posted 4 May 2024 8:14 am    
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You should definitely check out some of Guy Cundell’s work if you haven’t! Very informative.

C6th discussed around page 141:
https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/121301/3/Cundell2019_PhD.pdf
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Tim Toberer


From:
Nebraska, USA
Post  Posted 4 May 2024 10:11 am    
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Joe A. Roberts wrote:
You should definitely check out some of Guy Cundell’s work if you haven’t! Very informative.

C6th discussed around page 141:
https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/121301/3/Cundell2019_PhD.pdf

Probably the most informative research ever done, for steel guitar! I actually was reading that earlier before I started this thread. Great information, but the Tavares Brothers are not even mentioned. The closest he gets is saying

"In his book, Byrd admits that there is conjecture as to who first used the tuning and challenges all comers to provide evidence to the contrary. However, the tuning was emerging in Hawaiian music emanating from the West Coast at the time and it seems unlikely that a radio broadcast of a single tune by an unknown artist from Dayton, Ohio, would cause ripples in Los Angeles. Nevertheless, there is no reason to believe that Byrd did not arrive at this tuning independently."

Who was the king of Hawaiian steel guitar music on the west coast at the time??? It is hard to tell what tuning sometimes, but whatever tuning Freddie is using, he seems to know it well! No one questions Jerry Byrds influence on steel guitar, he made a life and career out of it, but most even here have never heard of the Tavares brothers. It irks me when people blindly state things as facts when there is doubt. It propagates ignorance and can disenfranchise people further. I surely have fallen victim to this as well, not trying to shame anyone, just want to set the record straight.

Just found this interesting thread concerning Ernests copedant (from 2 people who know this stuff way better than me!) comparing it to a modern C6.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=786815
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Erv Niehaus


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Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 6 May 2024 9:07 am    
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I first became aware of the C6th tuning when I acquired this book by Jerry Byrd.
He covered several different tunings and the C6th tuning is the last one in the book.

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Allan Revich


From:
Victoria, BC
Post  Posted 6 May 2024 12:40 pm    
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I think it would be better to ask who first “popularized” C6 tuning. Or perhaps, “who were the earliest proponents of C6?”. Even for the great Jerry Byrd to say he “invented” it seems like hubris.

After all, I have “invented” nearly a dozen tunings…
But of course research and reality checks revealed that I merely discovered for myself tunings that were invented long before I ever picked up a lap steel guitar.

It is in the nature of the instrument to experiment with different tunings. My guess is that there were plenty of ordinary shlubs like me who independently discovered that CEGACE was a very useful tuning. In other words, we can probably never know which individual player deserves credit as the first ever. This is pretty much the same conclusion that Cundell reaches on page 143.
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Post  Posted 6 May 2024 1:26 pm    
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Quote:
he “invented” it seems like hubris.


I agree with that. "A tuning" has been around since the beginning of steel guitar. It isn't too much of a stretch to go from AC#EAC#E to ACEGCE. Don't even have to change strings.
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Tim Toberer


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Nebraska, USA
Post  Posted 7 May 2024 5:15 am    
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JB deserves a lot of credit for all his contributions, but I think it is time to stop crediting him for inventing C6. He asked for evidence to prove him wrong, I am a little late, but it seems there is evidence that he is not the first to use it. This is the kind of thing that is easy for people to write off, like no one really cares except a bunch of steel guitar nerds. Maybe that is true, but JB obviously was trying to carve out a place for himself to be remembered. It would be better to do that based on facts. There seems to be a special association for steel players and their tuning, like Morrell E13 or Boggs E13. Jimmy Day and Buddy Emmons are still mentioned daily based on there contributions to E9 and beyond etc. JB may be the "inventor" of C6/A7 it seems, but giving him credit for inventing C6 is just going too far. Love it or hate it C6 is the closest thing we have to a standard tuning and it is the branch that extends through the entire steel guitar world. I believe this tuning has Hawaiian roots, and it is the Hawaiians who deserve the credit.
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Andy Volk


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Boston, MA
Post  Posted 7 May 2024 6:42 am    
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Much like the story of the electric guitar, I think the real story is that multiple people were plowing the same furrow independent of one another with confirmation of their discoveries by others sometimes the case, but not always the case.

As one example, Sonny Stitt always maintained he played like Charlie Parker without ever having heard Parker but never received any credit for his discoveries.

In the early years of steel guitar, professional players were constantly experimenting to better address the increasing sophistication of 20th Century popular music. It's not unreasonable to project that others, besides Byrd, were exploring similar ideas that resulted in the C6th tuning. Certainly, all this experimentation eventually led to the pedal steel. I agree that while deserving of many, many of his accolades, Byrd could display a fair amount of hubris in regard to his discoveries in music.
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Mike Neer


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NJ
Post  Posted 7 May 2024 6:53 am    
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This info came from Lorene Ruymar's book The Hawaiian Steel Guitar.

Joe Custino credited Tommy Castro as the first person he knew of using A minor tuning (E C A E C A), which Tommy later changed to Amin7 or C6 when he was playing with Ray Kinney, and was said to have recorded Maka Lapua with this new tuning.

There is also a recording of David Keli'i with Al Kealoha Perry from 7/2/1940 (Under A Spreading Coconut Tree and Twilight in Hawaii, both featured here: https://territorialairwaves.com/index.php?page=30&id=366) with C6 tuning.

Jerry Byrd was evidently recorded playing Lovely Hula Hands in 1939 using the C6 tuning, saying that he had come upon it as a result of his own experimentation. This was also verified by a man named Elmer Ridenhour, who said he met Jerry in 1939 or '40 and had asked him what tuning he was playing, and Jerry responded that he was using a tuning he came up with, C6.

It should be mentioned that a ukulele is most commonly tuned to the notes G C E A, very much like C6 steel guitar.
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Tim Toberer


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Nebraska, USA
Post  Posted 7 May 2024 8:06 am    
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Mike and Andy! Since I hopefully still have you tuned in, what do you think of these recordings? I just don't have the knowledge to tell, but this body of recordings starting in 1937 to me sounds like it could be C6.
https://archive.org/search?query=creator%3A%22Harry+Owens+And+His+Royal+Hawaiian+Hotel+Orchestra%22&sort=-date

Here is a specific example (lots of others) starting about 2:00 where Freddie is going between major and minor and the whole sound just has a 6th flavor. Can you tell what tuning this is? This along with his wife's quote that he uses C6 seems like pretty good evidence the tuning was already around.
https://archive.org/details/78_oni-oni-the-wiggle_harry-owens-and-his-royal-hawaiian-hotel-orchestra-harry-owens_gbia0088823a
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Bob Shilling


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Berkeley, CA, USA
Post  Posted 7 May 2024 10:47 am    
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Maybe time will tell. The early 18th century debate over who invented calculus included a smear-job by Isaac Newton on Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz. Sir Isaac was certainly full of hubris.

Now, 300 years later, it's pretty much acknowledged that they each worked it out independently, and Leibnitz's notation is commonly used.

Hopefully, this thread won't last 300 years. Rolling Eyes
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Andy Volk


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Boston, MA
Post  Posted 7 May 2024 1:14 pm    
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Tim, for the first one archive.org displayed a page full of recordings so not sure which was the one in question.

The second example could be C#m tuning. I don't really hear characteristic 6th sounds.

There are so many personal variations in steel guitar history that it's a real can of worms to figure out. I see the value of accurate history for posterity, but personally, I don't really care who invented C6th, I just want to know the practical details I need to know to use it.
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Tim Toberer


From:
Nebraska, USA
Post  Posted 8 May 2024 4:50 am    
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Andy Volk wrote:
Tim, for the first one archive.org displayed a page full of recordings so not sure which was the one in question.

The second example could be C#m tuning. I don't really hear characteristic 6th sounds.

There are so many personal variations in steel guitar history that it's a real can of worms to figure out. I see the value of accurate history for posterity, but personally, I don't really care who invented C6th, I just want to know the practical details I need to know to use it.

The first link is just the body of work. I included it for anyone who would be interested in listening further. I do appreciate your input, and I understand where you are coming from. I guess the purpose of this thread is not to establish who invented C6, it is more to try to squash the claim that Jerry Byrd invented it. I am never more happy than when I am wriggling around in a can of worms! I figure even if we could prove Freddie used it or someone else, it still wouldn't prove who invented it. I am perfectly happy thinking it formed organically amongst a group of talented musicians.

I realize this might not be for everybody, but I find this sort of thing fascinating. I do these "investigations " about lots of things I am in interested in. I even dragged my wife all around the country looking for abandoned watermills. Doing this stuff brings history to life and allows you to participate in it. History is not something dead on a page.

The quote to me is very telling in that it is so specific about the guitar even giving the serial number, 003. Hey Panda owners check your serial number. It is hard for me to think that she would be like "oh my bad, I meant to say he used C#m tuning". These recordings don't lie, but figuring out what tuning someone is using is definitely a can of worms!
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Joe A. Roberts


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Seoul, South Korea
Post  Posted 8 May 2024 5:30 am    
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I think there very well might have been independent discoveries of C6th.
If Dick McIntire was using a third on top, Jerry Byrd may have heard that sound and had lingering in his ear when he came C6th.

I doubt that players like Jules Ah See, for instance, were using C6th because of Jerry Byrd.

But looking at it from Byrd’s perspective, he made these revolutionary recordings on Mercury in the 40s demonstrating a complete mastery of the tuning and a new sound.
This sound was incredibly influential, and widely imitated before the advent of pedals in the culture and studio environment around him.

Would players like Curly Chalker and Joaquin Murphey have played C6th if not for Jerry? (though Joaquin was playing C6th early and was also a student of McIntire in LA I believe, also using F#9th as a second tuning like he did…)

What about third on top E tunings like that used by Don Helms whose tuning is practically C6th but in E?
Was that a development influenced by Jerry?

Would the C6th neck have ended up on pedal steel if not for him?

I have some ideas for these questions, but don’t know for sure.

I am sure there were a lot more answers to tuning questions and history that died with the people that knew them. No one asked, or if they did, it was mostly not recorded for posterity.

These kind of situations always remind me of the introduction to Stefan Grossman’s Lonnie Johnson book.
Lonnie Johnson had a ferocious guitar style in the 20s and 30s which he mysteriously and radically diverted from starting in the 40s:

“…[in the older recordings] he may have played with a capo but the chord shapes are always based around the key of D. Within 140 plus tracks you will only find 3 or 4 tunes in a key other than D!
Yet Lonnie’s recording output in the 1940s and 1950s has little in common with blues in D and he in fact rarely played in that key or style during these years.
I personally cannot cite any other guitarist whose style and technique changed so dramatically.
Especially after it was so widely acclaimed and imitated.
This is a very strange phenomenon that only Lonnie could have helped us to understand.
…only Lonnie really knew and we forgot to ask!”
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 8 May 2024 2:49 pm    
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Frankly, I don't know either, and I doubt we will ever know who played C6th first.
The question however rather is; who added C# to C6th or lets say a b9th to a C6th tuning!

In my opinion, C6th is a chord, like A6th, E6th or any other 6th chord.

I don't think one could seriously claim to have "invented" a chord, much less when that chord quality had been discovered and used for a long time before in music.

In contrast, B11th could maybe be called an "invention" it is a compound of A6th and B9th.
Likewise Jerry Byrd's C6th/A7th (Dom7th, NOT m7th!), could then be viewed as an "invention", since, as C6th shares the same 4 notes with it's relative minor, Am7th, which gives any 6th tuning Major & minor qualities, JB raised the bottom C on his 6th string to C#. C is the minor 3rd of Am7, thus raised to C# it becomes the Major 3rd to A Dom7th... effectively A7Alt or A7/#9th... as the top C staid put, and thus also accidentally the "inventor" of what would later become known as "P8" on a BE C6th.
As JB later got a 7-string in 1937, he added a bottom C on string #7 below that C# on string #6. He could strum A7th or pick C6th or Am7th. Having a Dominant chord too in ones arsenal, also allows to suggest a minor-b5/half diminished. For a "little" 7 string tuning, yielding the 4 main chord qualities is not bad at all, and again, could be considered as such an "invention". Not even a 10 string BE C6th has can do that without involving pedal/lever use.

Similarly it could be called an "invention" to have added the F (string #9th on a BE C6th) on that tuning. That one too, is not part of the chord. From BE's Biography, I was surprised to find out that BE got the idea from someone else who already had that "odd" string. It's not exaggerating to call that a "pivotal" element of the tuning. Likewise, we learn that BE believed that Bobby Black suggested the top D-string to him "there's a lot there".

I also think that besides JB's fame because of his excellence and history of teaching efforts, had it not been C6th which became the main "Swing" pedal tuning, but -for arguments sake- A6th (we'd maybe be talking more about Herb Remington in that case) or E6th or as so recently D6th (13th, really), less attention would be given to the origins of C6th. Which again should remind us that these are merely chords which had long been discovered.

... J-D.
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Doug Beaumier


From:
Northampton, MA
Post  Posted 8 May 2024 4:56 pm    
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Joe A. Roberts wrote:
…from Byrd’s perspective, he made these revolutionary recordings on Mercury in the 40s demonstrating a complete mastery of the tuning and a new sound.


That reminds me of something Buddy Emmons said. I’m paraphrasing here, but he said that back in the 50s and 60s the players in Nashville were coming up with new sounds, new licks, new knee lever changes for the pedal steel. And whoever got into the studio first to record that new sound, lick, or knee lever… got the credit!

Of course, JB didn’t play pedal steel, but the same idea. He did a ton of recording on C6 lap steel in the late 40s and the 50s.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 9 May 2024 3:27 am    
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Doug Beaumier wrote:
Joe A. Roberts wrote:
…from Byrd’s perspective, he made these revolutionary recordings on Mercury in the 40s demonstrating a complete mastery of the tuning and a new sound.


That reminds me of something Buddy Emmons said. I’m paraphrasing here, but he said that back in the 50s and 60s the players in Nashville were coming up with new sounds, new licks, new knee lever changes for the pedal steel. And whoever got into the studio first to record that new sound, lick, or knee lever… got the credit!

Of course, JB didn’t play pedal steel, but the same idea. He did a ton of recording on C6 lap steel in the late 40s and the 50s.


No disrespect to BE and the A-Team, but that's an easy rule to setup and live up to by a recording artist.
I have read this many times, and even read BE stating it here so many years ago.
But what about all the -back then quite many- road, ball room, opreys and club players and their contributions? Nothing, just because they didn't get recorded. Let's not forget that often singers did not record with their own bands some constellation of the "A-Team"... and often singers asked for their road guys' solo to be featured. And there goes the "credit".

... J-D.


I still question the idea of claiming to invent "a chord". Especially when that chord quality (C6th in this case) was already being used on steel guitars as a tuning in other pitches, namely A6th, E6th, E13th.

One could argue that Joseph Kekuku, credited for "inventing" the instrument also could be credited for coming up with the novel idea to tune it to a "chord" instead of a guitar or similar tuning in 4ths or 5ths (depending on the way one looks at it). Sure, after 1959 there will be those who'd argue that the Spanish guitar tuning is a chord, a "quartal-chord" nicely rounded of with a Major 3rd on top, to which I'd say "So What!" (pun intended) Razz

JB's "invention" was C6th/ADom7th(#9th) by adding a C# which didn't belong to the C Major chord or scale and inadvertently alsor "inventing" what would late become known as the infamous "P8" (aka. the "Boowhah" or as Maurice would paraphrase it "Boowhah", the "Splattt"-pedal).

Now, some may want to suggest that JB thus invented the 7#9th-chord often mislabeled the Jimmi Hendrix-chord, but Django Reinhardt used that chord long before JH and I believe it was Debussy who used it long before Django too.
I don't believe in "inventing" chords. You can "Discover" chords, like one can discover laws of physics or new Continents or planetary systems or may one last "lost" Island somewhere way out in the Pacific, but not invent them.

One can experiment with newly discovered or often really only re-discovered chords and seek to apply them with different functions or become "creative" and "inventive" totally outside of their function until one gets lost in the jungle of cacophony or as some called it "Free-Jazz" just before OD'in on some junk. The later being the second more likely reason why Free Jazz did not withstand the test of times very long. Physics is a... "bleep" Very Happy (this is a family forum!)


all this is not directed to YOU Doug... I just kept on typing!... J-D.
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Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 9 May 2024 3:29 am    
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Erv Niehaus wrote:
...



If ever the Jerry Byrd Story would have been made a movie, I would have wanted to see Sir Anthony Hopkins play JB.

Very Happy

... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Tim Toberer


From:
Nebraska, USA
Post  Posted 10 May 2024 11:47 am    
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Joe A. Roberts wrote:

I am sure there were a lot more answers to tuning questions and history that died with the people that knew them. No one asked, or if they did, it was mostly not recorded for posterity.

These kind of situations always remind me of the introduction to Stefan Grossman’s Lonnie Johnson book.
Lonnie Johnson had a ferocious guitar style in the 20s and 30s which he mysteriously and radically diverted from starting in the 40s:

This is something I have been thinking about a lot. What are the questions we should be asking now? I read back on this forum quite often, and there are all these amazing people participating, with so much experience and all these direct connections to these old players and places. They will tell part of a story or say something that was never followed up on and it is just left there to wonder, cause some are gone now sadly.

I have been reading a bunch about JB (Anthony Hopkins!) and developing a bit of a soft spot for his claim. It still feels like taking something you shouldn't saying that he invented C6 tuning, a chord, but he has a pretty good case I suppose. The problem with things like this are it is much harder to prove him wrong than it is to make the claim. Kind of like claiming you saw a UFO or Bigfoot.

Here is an interesting footnote. I read in numerous articles that JB remained devoted to non pedal playing his whole life. In fact it appears he had a moment where he considered jumping to pedal steel after seeing a more functional pedal steel being played by none other that Ernest Tavares! It seems it was his fans and/or record company that talked him out of it. The date of 1949 could be right, but from what I have read Ernie wasn't playing with Harry Owens at that time so something seems a bit off.

In the interview with Laurie Mills, Jerry mentions he first saw a pedal steel guitar in 1939. Back then he said, they weren't as sophisticated as they are now with the instruments; they had ingenious ways to pull the strings, but they didn't seem to work and the guitars were forever out of tune. That made him think he wasn't going to change unless he saw some big improvements. It wasn't until 1949 that he saw a good version of a pedal steel. Ernest Tavares was playing it, who was with Harry Owens at the time. Jerry thought Ernest's pedal steel was good, but by that time, Jerry had been recording on his own and had developed a unique style. He had a big fan club back then he said. He asked them - should he move to the pedal steel? They told him, if they wanted to hear the pedal steel guitar, they would buy those records, so his fans told him to stay the course.
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J D Sauser


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Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 10 May 2024 2:31 pm    
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Tim Toberer wrote:
Joe A. Roberts wrote:

I am sure there were a lot more answers to tuning questions and history that died with the people that knew them. No one asked, or if they did, it was mostly not recorded for posterity.

These kind of situations always remind me of the introduction to Stefan Grossman’s Lonnie Johnson book.
Lonnie Johnson had a ferocious guitar style in the 20s and 30s which he mysteriously and radically diverted from starting in the 40s:

This is something I have been thinking about a lot. What are the questions we should be asking now? I read back on this forum quite often, and there are all these amazing people participating, with so much experience and all these direct connections to these old players and places. They will tell part of a story or say something that was never followed up on and it is just left there to wonder, cause some are gone now sadly.

I have been reading a bunch about JB (Anthony Hopkins!) and developing a bit of a soft spot for his claim. It still feels like taking something you shouldn't saying that he invented C6 tuning, a chord, but he has a pretty good case I suppose. The problem with things like this are it is much harder to prove him wrong than it is to make the claim. Kind of like claiming you saw a UFO or Bigfoot.

Here is an interesting footnote. I read in numerous articles that JB remained devoted to non pedal playing his whole life. In fact it appears he had a moment where he considered jumping to pedal steel after seeing a more functional pedal steel being played by none other that Ernest Tavares! It seems it was his fans and/or record company that talked him out of it. The date of 1949 could be right, but from what I have read Ernie wasn't playing with Harry Owens at that time so something seems a bit off.

In the interview with Laurie Mills, Jerry mentions he first saw a pedal steel guitar in 1939. Back then he said, they weren't as sophisticated as they are now with the instruments; they had ingenious ways to pull the strings, but they didn't seem to work and the guitars were forever out of tune. That made him think he wasn't going to change unless he saw some big improvements. It wasn't until 1949 that he saw a good version of a pedal steel. Ernest Tavares was playing it, who was with Harry Owens at the time. Jerry thought Ernest's pedal steel was good, but by that time, Jerry had been recording on his own and had developed a unique style. He had a big fan club back then he said. He asked them - should he move to the pedal steel? They told him, if they wanted to hear the pedal steel guitar, they would buy those records, so his fans told him to stay the course.


I did to hear about JB having had a "moment of weakness" considering PSG. I think it was a carrer crossroad and he instead chose to move to Hawaii, friendlier territory.

I read that he shall have had a moment of frustration too, around the times when pedals started to become the new direction (beyond experimental coat-hanger Frankensteels), exclaiming something to the take of "oh great, now ANYBODY can play steel guitar!".

Yet I also had the utmost respect and even admiration for Buddy Emmons to whom he even dedicated a tune recorded at Scotty's.

He was know to be brash and even somewhat low-patience with his students. I don't know how successful they became. He didn't quite build the reputation Jeff Newman got, who even cranked out a few who became professionals.

But he was surprisingly generous with his time, even for people he never met, writing hand written letters, explaining, sharing thoughts... I know, because I got some of them (in exchange for mine).

He's missed, and dearly... There won't be another JB... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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