Who invented C6 tuning? Evidence??

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

After reading the Ernest Tavares story articles I just posted, I remembered what Chris Scruggs said regarding the origins of C6 in the SGAC interview. I did a little search of the forum, and it seems to be accepted knowledge that Jerry Byrd invented C6 sometime in 1937. Apparently he claimed to "invent it", in one of his books? I am not trying to start an argument, I am just curious what does the evidence say? Here are the threads I found regarding this.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=169280
https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/004759.html

The thing that was buzzing in my head was, I remembered reading about Freddie Tavares using C6 on his recordings with the Royal Hawaiians. Here is the clip about this.

"According to his wife, Freddie Tavares bought a 6 string Black & White bakelite Rickenbacker steel guitar as soon as the model came on the market in July 1935, (serial number 003) removing the left front white cover to store his bar and picks (thumb and 3 finger) inside between dance sets. He used C6th tuning for Hapa-Haole and more modern Hawaiian songs, raising the A to B flat for a C 7th tuning when playing older Hawaiian songs. He also designed and built his own tube amplifiers and casings, building a second amp into each enclosure as a spare in case the main unit blew during a set."

Here is a the discography of the Harry Owens group featuring Freddie Tavares on steel guitar starting in April of 1937.
( Most of these recordings are on the Internet Archive (which is down for maintenance right now). I listened to a number of them and it sounds like Freddie is using a 6th type tuning, I hear minor triads at least. I was unable to find any evidence of JB using this tuning at this time. It just seems unlikely to me that Freddie learned this tuning from JB, and more likely that he developed this tuning in order to play along with the Owens Big Band. Of course we may never know. Could this be another "I wrote Steel Guitar Rag" situation?

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

You should definitely check out some of Guy Cundell’s work if you haven’t! Very informative.

C6th discussed around page 141:
https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/121301/3/Cundell2019_PhD.pdf

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I first became aware of the C6th tuning when I acquired this book by Jerry Byrd.
He covered several different tunings and the C6th tuning is the last one in the book.

Allan Revich · From: Victoria, BC

I think it would be better to ask who first “popularized” C6 tuning. Or perhaps, “who were the earliest proponents of C6?”. Even for the great Jerry Byrd to say he “invented” it seems like hubris.

After all, I have “invented” nearly a dozen tunings…
But of course research and reality checks revealed that I merely discovered for myself tunings that were invented long before I ever picked up a lap steel guitar.

It is in the nature of the instrument to experiment with different tunings. My guess is that there were plenty of ordinary shlubs like me who independently discovered that CEGACE was a very useful tuning. In other words, we can probably never know which individual player deserves credit as the first ever. This is pretty much the same conclusion that Cundell reaches on page 143.
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Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)

https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database

Bill McCloskey · Posted 6 May 2024 1:26 pm

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

JB deserves a lot of credit for all his contributions, but I think it is time to stop crediting him for inventing C6. He asked for evidence to prove him wrong, I am a little late, but it seems there is evidence that he is not the first to use it. This is the kind of thing that is easy for people to write off, like no one really cares except a bunch of steel guitar nerds. Maybe that is true, but JB obviously was trying to carve out a place for himself to be remembered. It would be better to do that based on facts. There seems to be a special association for steel players and their tuning, like Morrell E13 or Boggs E13. Jimmy Day and Buddy Emmons are still mentioned daily based on there contributions to E9 and beyond etc. JB may be the "inventor" of C6/A7 it seems, but giving him credit for inventing C6 is just going too far. Love it or hate it C6 is the closest thing we have to a standard tuning and it is the branch that extends through the entire steel guitar world. I believe this tuning has Hawaiian roots, and it is the Hawaiians who deserve the credit.

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Much like the story of the electric guitar, I think the real story is that multiple people were plowing the same furrow independent of one another with confirmation of their discoveries by others sometimes the case, but not always the case.

As one example, Sonny Stitt always maintained he played like Charlie Parker without ever having heard Parker but never received any credit for his discoveries.

In the early years of steel guitar, professional players were constantly experimenting to better address the increasing sophistication of 20th Century popular music. It's not unreasonable to project that others, besides Byrd, were exploring similar ideas that resulted in the C6th tuning. Certainly, all this experimentation eventually led to the pedal steel. I agree that while deserving of many, many of his accolades, Byrd could display a fair amount of hubris in regard to his discoveries in music.
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

This info came from Lorene Ruymar's book The Hawaiian Steel Guitar.

Joe Custino credited Tommy Castro as the first person he knew of using A minor tuning (E C A E C A), which Tommy later changed to Amin7 or C6 when he was playing with Ray Kinney, and was said to have recorded Maka Lapua with this new tuning.

There is also a recording of David Keli'i with Al Kealoha Perry from 7/2/1940 (Under A Spreading Coconut Tree and Twilight in Hawaii, both featured here: https://territorialairwaves.com/index.php?page=30&id=366) with C6 tuning.

Jerry Byrd was evidently recorded playing Lovely Hula Hands in 1939 using the C6 tuning, saying that he had come upon it as a result of his own experimentation. This was also verified by a man named Elmer Ridenhour, who said he met Jerry in 1939 or '40 and had asked him what tuning he was playing, and Jerry responded that he was using a tuning he came up with, C6.

It should be mentioned that a ukulele is most commonly tuned to the notes G C E A, very much like C6 steel guitar.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Mike and Andy! Since I hopefully still have you tuned in, what do you think of these recordings? I just don't have the knowledge to tell, but this body of recordings starting in 1937 to me sounds like it could be C6.
https://archive.org/search?query=creator%3A%22Harry+Owens+And+His+Royal+Hawaiian+Hotel+Orchestra%22&sort=-date

Here is a specific example (lots of others) starting about 2:00 where Freddie is going between major and minor and the whole sound just has a 6th flavor. Can you tell what tuning this is? This along with his wife's quote that he uses C6 seems like pretty good evidence the tuning was already around.
https://archive.org/details/78_oni-oni-the-wiggle_harry-owens-and-his-royal-hawaiian-hotel-orchestra-harry-owens_gbia0088823a

Bob Shilling · From: Berkeley, CA, USA

Maybe time will tell. The early 18th century debate over who invented calculus included a smear-job by Isaac Newton on Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz. Sir Isaac was certainly full of hubris.

Now, 300 years later, it's pretty much acknowledged that they each worked it out independently, and Leibnitz's notation is commonly used.

Hopefully, this thread won't last 300 years. Rolling Eyes

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Bob Shilling, Berkeley, CA--MSA S10, "Classic"

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Tim, for the first one archive.org displayed a page full of recordings so not sure which was the one in question.

The second example could be C#m tuning. I don't really hear characteristic 6th sounds.

There are so many personal variations in steel guitar history that it's a real can of worms to figure out. I see the value of accurate history for posterity, but personally, I don't really care who invented C6th, I just want to know the practical details I need to know to use it.
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Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

I think there very well might have been independent discoveries of C6th.
If Dick McIntire was using a third on top, Jerry Byrd may have heard that sound and had lingering in his ear when he came C6th.

I doubt that players like Jules Ah See, for instance, were using C6th because of Jerry Byrd.

But looking at it from Byrd’s perspective, he made these revolutionary recordings on Mercury in the 40s demonstrating a complete mastery of the tuning and a new sound.
This sound was incredibly influential, and widely imitated before the advent of pedals in the culture and studio environment around him.

Would players like Curly Chalker and Joaquin Murphey have played C6th if not for Jerry? (though Joaquin was playing C6th early and was also a student of McIntire in LA I believe, also using F#9th as a second tuning like he did…)

What about third on top E tunings like that used by Don Helms whose tuning is practically C6th but in E?
Was that a development influenced by Jerry?

Would the C6th neck have ended up on pedal steel if not for him?

I have some ideas for these questions, but don’t know for sure.

I am sure there were a lot more answers to tuning questions and history that died with the people that knew them. No one asked, or if they did, it was mostly not recorded for posterity.

These kind of situations always remind me of the introduction to Stefan Grossman’s Lonnie Johnson book.
Lonnie Johnson had a ferocious guitar style in the 20s and 30s which he mysteriously and radically diverted from starting in the 40s:

“…[in the older recordings] he may have played with a capo but the chord shapes are always based around the key of D. Within 140 plus tracks you will only find 3 or 4 tunes in a key other than D!
Yet Lonnie’s recording output in the 1940s and 1950s has little in common with blues in D and he in fact rarely played in that key or style during these years.
I personally cannot cite any other guitarist whose style and technique changed so dramatically.
Especially after it was so widely acclaimed and imitated.
This is a very strange phenomenon that only Lonnie could have helped us to understand.
…only Lonnie really knew and we forgot to ask!”

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Frankly, I don't know either, and I doubt we will ever know who played C6th first.
The question however rather is; who added C# to C6th or lets say a b9th to a C6th tuning!

In my opinion, C6th is a chord, like A6th, E6th or any other 6th chord.

I don't think one could seriously claim to have "invented" a chord, much less when that chord quality had been discovered and used for a long time before in music.

In contrast, B11th could maybe be called an "invention" it is a compound of A6th and B9th.
Likewise Jerry Byrd's C6th/A7th (Dom7th, NOT m7th!), could then be viewed as an "invention", since, as C6th shares the same 4 notes with it's relative minor, Am7th, which gives any 6th tuning Major & minor qualities, JB raised the bottom C on his 6th string to C#. C is the minor 3rd of Am7, thus raised to C# it becomes the Major 3rd to A Dom7th... effectively A7Alt or A7/#9th... as the top C staid put, and thus also accidentally the "inventor" of what would later become known as "P8" on a BE C6th.
As JB later got a 7-string in 1937, he added a bottom C on string #7 below that C# on string #6. He could strum A7th or pick C6th or Am7th. Having a Dominant chord too in ones arsenal, also allows to suggest a minor-b5/half diminished. For a "little" 7 string tuning, yielding the 4 main chord qualities is not bad at all, and again, could be considered as such an "invention". Not even a 10 string BE C6th has can do that without involving pedal/lever use.

Similarly it could be called an "invention" to have added the F (string #9th on a BE C6th) on that tuning. That one too, is not part of the chord. From BE's Biography, I was surprised to find out that BE got the idea from someone else who already had that "odd" string. It's not exaggerating to call that a "pivotal" element of the tuning. Likewise, we learn that BE believed that Bobby Black suggested the top D-string to him "there's a lot there".

I also think that besides JB's fame because of his excellence and history of teaching efforts, had it not been C6th which became the main "Swing" pedal tuning, but -for arguments sake- A6th (we'd maybe be talking more about Herb Remington in that case) or E6th or as so recently D6th (13th, really), less attention would be given to the origins of C6th. Which again should remind us that these are merely chords which had long been discovered.

... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

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