cabinet drop

Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

Also well said, Bill, start with an "E" and sweeten from there.
Although the tuning problems on the E9 are often similar, there is also the variability of different guitars, changers, and different under carriage setups.
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Most people didn’t even know what cabinet drop was until electronic tuners came along. Don’t even worry about it, just tune and play. 😊
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Just tune up and play, right.

I think people knew what cabinet drop was the very first moment they heard their E string go flat when they stepped on the the AB pedals.

Funny, this forum is full of brilliant experienced builders and repair mechanics who use precision tools and take into account measurements to within thousands of an inch, all to make sure the pedal steel guitar functions at something close to reliable perfection. But when it comes to tuning, hey, just wing it.

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

i hear a significant drop on both my Es as well as my lower F# when i engage pedals A and B. I am going to order some compensator rods
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Emmons, Franklin, Mullen

Duane Dunard · From: Troy, MO. U.S.A.

Wanting the best tone from my steel, (and good tuning = good tone), I fought the cabinet drop issue for years. So I purchased raise & lower compensator parts and installed them. They work, but,,,, I’m always checking them, spending way too much time tweaking and tuning. Btw,,,After all the wasted effort and expense, the guitar or bass player will have a slight tuning issue going on and make me sound out of tune anyway.

Bill Lowe · From: Connecticut

any comments on Emmons Lg111 or Zum anti detuner ? I havent heard complaints about them and wondered why every guitar company didn't incorporate something like this in all their guitars. Its my understanding they are pretty much set it and forget it with very little attention needed to adjust the detuning portion.
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Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

Bruce Derr · From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA

I have a bit of a lazy streak so I usually just tune while holding the B pedal down. This gives me a middle-ground compensation for any cabinet drop, between pedals up and pedals down. My routine is something like this:
- With B pedal down, I tune the E's, B's, and A's (and D if I had one) to 440, G#'s and D# to -14 cents, F#'s to -7 cents.
- With only A pedal down, I tune C#'s to -14 cents.
- C pedal: C# and F# both to -14 cents.
- E lower KL: D#'s to -14 cents.
- E raise KL: F to about -25 cents.
- Check and adjust by ear if necessary. My first check is usually the open 6th G# against the A pedal C# 5th string. I don't like to hear beats there.

This gets me close enough, and it's quick. The basic premise is to tune for average cabinet drop with roots and fifths straight up, major thirds at about -14 cents, and the pesky open F#'s at halfway between straight up and -14.

All that said, I could just use an A or E tuning fork and do the rest by ear like I did before tuners. But as Fred mentioned, it was sometimes difficult when you didn't want to annoy the audience or when the venue was too noisy. (I remember seeing at least one steel player tuning with headphones on back then.)

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

thanks for chiming in Bruce!
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Emmons, Franklin, Mullen

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I don't know about you guys, but no one in our band is allowed to live tune on stage. Everyone has a tuning meter which we check with each other on a monthly basis. Live tuning in stage is unprofessional and annoying to the audience.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Not going to argue with any of our friends here, but lets be realistic... The pedal steel is "bending" the cabinet and frame ever so slightly every time a pedal or lever is pushed... You ARE going to have a drop of a few cents on other strings.. Get a good enough meter and you might even see it on all strings.. It was always there,,, however, steel players adjusted to it by ear, and by proper bar placement, vibrato technique all learned by time and experience.. This has been going on for I dunno, 65 or so years??.. Again, the great steel players of yesteryear tuned to a pitch pipe, maybe a piano until electronic tuners came into wide use,, They sounded great, In tune, sweet as honey .. They compensated for tuning issues in their instruments the way musicians throughout history have done it. By training their ears and hands.

Way too much reliance on gadgetry these days. Cabinet drop has been around for as long as pedal steels have been around, some worse than others.. I dunno, if we are really all that worried about it, maybe everyone should play old Fender cable jobs.. They say they don't have as much of the dreaded "cabinet drop". I have had a bunch of them, and to my ears they were no better or worse than the brand new pedal steels i had right alongside them. I could sound equally as awful on either...

I never thought much about cabinet drop, until one day I read about it, got a strobe, and saw it for myself. Know what I did? Rather than sweat over it, I forgot about it as quickly as I learned about it. Here's the advice of an old journeyman honky tonk musician- Tune your guitar up, play it with heart and with good proper technique, and with a good ear..
It will sound wonderful, and not one soul will ever know its going 2 or 3 cents flat whenever you hit the pedals, I promise... You guys are thinking too much. Did that for too long, it gets you in trouble, messes with your head.

You play a wonderful musical instrument, enjoy it, make great music for all to enjoy along with you,and don't think too much... Just play..... bob
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I keep a TU-12 in my chain but its only purpose is to allow me to check the overall pitch of my necks. Florida weather along with A/C (and ceiling-fans) can cause things to detune.

I stress, though, that this is a 'once a week' check on average. My ear tells me things aren't quite right; the TU-12 confirms that everything's dropped a few cents.

Relative-tuning, though, I do by ear. I like matching t5he 1 and 5 so it sounds sweet and beatless. The only thing that plagues me is the 6th string B pedal raise; on my guitar, I swear that moves of its own volition and requires an occasional tweak.

I use my ears, though, not the tuner.

When I first started as a pro in '59, back 'before the old King died', we'd get a note from the piano. Good or bad, that was the Golden Rule back, admittedly, before I even knew what a steel guitar was.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

I previously posted the first two steps of Larry Bell’s tuning method, since they seemed most relevant to the OP's question about “cabinet drop”:

1. Push your A and B pedals and release a few times, then HOLD THE A & B PEDALS DOWN (ENGAGED).
Tune the E notes to be STRAIGHT UP (0 deflection) WITH THE A and B PEDALS ENGAGED

2. Release your A and B pedals (NO PEDALS ENGAGED)
Check your E strings. They should be 4-8 cents sharp (441-442 on the Hertz scale)
Tune the B's the same offset as the E's; if the E's are 4 cents sharp, tune the B's 4 cents sharp

However, there is much more about tuning on his website. Larry posted the rest of the tuning process that he uses, and an extensive discussion of different methods of tuning a pedal steel at: http://www.larrybell.org/id32.htm

How well does Larry’s tuning process work?
For me, the “proof is in the pudding”, and Larry posts numerous sound clips of his playing both E9 and C6 (on 12 string “E9/B6 universal” setups.

There are samples from Larry’s CDs on his website:
“Larry Bell -- Pedal Steel Guitar”: http://www.larrybell.org/id44.htm
“I've Got Friends in COLD Places”: http://www.larrybell.org/id42.htm

Some that are obviously E9 are:
"Desperado": http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/Desperado.mp3
"Heartaches by the Numbers":
http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/Heartaches.mp3
"A Way to Survive": http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/WTS.mp3
"She Thinks I Still Care": http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/STISC.mp3
“Ashokan Farewell”: http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/cAshokan.mp3

Plus several tunes not associated with PSG, such as:
Rikki Don't Lose That Number (Steely Dan): http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/Rikki.mp3

Intonation:
IMHO, Larry is an excellent player with (to my ear) impeccable intonation; his playing and tone reminds me of Buddy Emmons.

Regarding compensators:
Larry was (and may still be) a huge Emmons push-pull guitar fan and I believe that many of the tunes posted were played on one of his push-pulls--which as you probably know, did not have compensators, etc...which means that he was able to get excellent intonation with just his tuning method and bar placement.

- Dave

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

It was ever thus: that inversion (A pedal/F lever) is no place to linger for too long. You can learn to 'play' it in tune and, anyway, it's no worse than a bar-slant if you use more than two strings.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Agreed.

I often wish I'd opted for compensators on my E9 neck. Now, though, I dou8bt I have space in the changer.

Dunno, though: the 1st and 7th? Maybe.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Tony Oresteen · From: Georgia, USA

Bob Shilling · From: Berkeley, CA, USA

Since this thread started, Rick Beato has made a couple of interesting posts about tuning by ear:

[/url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJPjMlwB0s

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbBXKl15NNU

I wonder if he's been reading this forum. Laughing

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Bob Shilling, Berkeley, CA--MSA S10, "Classic"

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

Cool will definitely watch that!
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Emmons, Franklin, Mullen

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Rick Beato is using the method I've used for as long as I've played - getting 1sts and 5ths 'singing' together.

I can soon tell if all is well on six-string if I play an open D (but with an A note on the top string).

Steel is clearly more complex but the same basics apply - for me, anyway.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

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