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Topic: "stacking" raises between pedals/levers |
Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 9:40 am |
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Trying out a new change on my MSA classic; I wanted to raise my 5th string an additional half step *when in the A+B pedals position*, and have it working on my LKV. I had to set up the LKV as a 3 semitone raise, so that when I'm in A+B, I can get that extra semitone.
Is there any other mechanical/physical way to set up stacking raises, so that I could get just a semitone raise on the LKV in BOTH open, and A+B pedal positions? Trying to wrap my head around how that could potentially work, but coming up empty  |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 10:08 am
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Interesting. And I'm coming up empty too. Hitting brick walls with anyplace my mind takes me.
But tell me -- I have consistently had bad problems with having a secondary raise on an already raised string. It always comes back very sharp if you release raise #2, to come to rest at raise #1.
Have you encountered this? |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 10:22 am
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Dittos to both of Jon's comments.
With regard to his second comment, I ran into that issue with my Mullen U-12 many years ago.
I set up the vertical lever to raise the 5th string from C# to D. That part worked well; however, releasing that secondary raise back down from D to C# or down from D to B just didn't work well. There were tuning issues. It's been a long time; but, I think there was even an issue of deciding how to tune that D.
~Lee |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 11:23 am
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You would have to set it up with a stop on the initial knee lever raise to C that would then be released via a separate pull rod when you engaged the A pedal to allow the full raise to D. It would take a little finagling but should be easily doable. The same basic concept as the faux splits that some players put on push-pulls.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 12:19 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
Interesting. And I'm coming up empty too. Hitting brick walls with anyplace my mind takes me.
But tell me -- I have consistently had bad problems with having a secondary raise on an already raised string. It always comes back very sharp if you release raise #2, to come to rest at raise #1.
Have you encountered this? |
Surprisingly, it didn't seem to have issues coming back down. I actually have my PSG torn apart right now- finally doing a full clean of the changer and everything, and figured now is a great time to see if there's a better way to do it before I rerod it! |
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Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 12:21 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| You would have to set it up with a stop on the initial knee lever raise to C that would then be released via a separate pull rod when you engaged the A pedal to allow the full raise to D. It would take a little finagling but should be easily doable. The same basic concept as the faux splits that some players put on push-pulls. |
Trying to wrap my head around this Ian (and coming up short)- knee lever raise would have a feel stop? And don't get what you mean by 'release via a separate pull rod'. Would this setup mean I would have a semitone raise in both the pedals down and pedals up positions? Thanks kindly! |
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James Collett
From:
San Dimas, CA
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 12:48 pm
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You might be able to do something like that with a yoke, where the single-rod side goes to the changer and each of the rods on the double site connect to bell cranks on both the A pedal and B->C knee lever. You would tune at the changer with both changes engaged. When you release the A pedal, you're effectively pivoting around the yoke. By adjusting the travel and balance on the yoke, you could create another position to tune so that the non-stacked and stacked raises are in relative tune.
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James Collett |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 1:26 pm
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It may be possible to reverse the split tuning to become a stacked resulting tuning altho I am not sure how stable it would work tuningwise.
Any that have a B-Bb lever on the 5th string split tuned with the A pedal to give a C note can try it out to see if it will work tho.
Engage the B-Bb lever by itself then retune the open string back up to B. Keep lever engaged. Now check if the A pedal will raise to C# and return back to B when released. If so Press A pedal again and see if the C# further raises to D when the B-Bb lever is released?
The lever would then need a spring to keep it engaged and a knee-lever pushing in the opposite direction to release the pull rod working on the lowering changer finger.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 4:36 pm
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| Jordan Yeo wrote: |
| Trying to wrap my head around this Ian (and coming up short)- knee lever raise would have a feel stop? And don't get what you mean by 'release via a separate pull rod'. Would this setup mean I would have a semitone raise in both the pedals down and pedals up positions? Thanks kindly! |
The idea would be just an intermediate stop for the 1/2 tone raise on the vertical (either stopping the lever itself or stopping a bell crank or something on that cross shaft) that gets pivoted or pulled out of the way by a pull rod or some other mechanical means when you engage the A pedal to allow the full raise. There are lot of different ways you could do this.
You could do something with a compression spring on a rod like a mechanical half-stop attached to the A pedal that would pull the vertical lever stop away and allow the additional raise when the pedal is engaged. The drawback that would be some added tension to your A pedal from the spring.
You could set up a stop with a swivel base or something similar that would rotate out of the way when you engage the A pedal to allow the full raise to D. This would provide a much more firm and tunable intermediate stop at the 1/2 tone and wouldn't add much if any tension to the A pedal. It could also be a movable stop that pivots sided-to-side, parallel with the cross shaft to allow the change. There a lots of other variations to how you could do this depending on your mechanical skills and available tools, parts and materials. If I were doing this I my own guitar I would just start experimenting to see what works best.
Some options might not allow you to smoothly/accurately descend back to the 1/2 step raise when you released the A pedal. I don't know if that would be important to you, but the most fundamental rule in setting up changes on a PSG is that almost everything involves a trade-off. You need to approach it from the perspective of your personal priorities to make sure you're not sacrificing something important for the sake of a seldom-used change. BTW, what kind of guitar is it? Good luck!
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Feb 2024 7:58 pm
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How are you using it? If you're lowering the 2nd, you already have that note, don't you? Or, do you need that note in the string 3-4-5 A&B triad?
How about this: A&B down, slide up one fret and let off B pedal and lower the E strings. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Feb 2024 6:39 am
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I have always been sceptical of raising 5 to D.
If in the AB position I want to raise the third on its own to a sus4, I release B, lower the Es, and slide up a fret (like Donny says).
If I want a IV chord I use AF and slide up a fret.
I can't think of any need to raise that note without moving.
On the mechanical side though, I raise string 9 from B to D on a lever on my unis and it doesn't interfere with the working of the A pedal - everything returns to pitch whichever order I activate them in on both my steels.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 27 Feb 2024 7:11 am
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Fair points with that note being available in other spots- a few of my favorite licks would benefit from me not having to slide my bar up a fret, and I wasn't using my LKV for anything useful at the moment 
Thanks for the ideas @Ian- something to consider for sure. It's a 70s 12 string MSA classic. |
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Hans Holzherr
From:
Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland
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Posted 28 Feb 2024 10:32 am
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| Theoretically, with some additional gear, there is the possiblity to reverse the action of the vertical lever like on the LKR. With a strong spring pulling the bell crank towards the key head against a stop, the lowering finger on the changer would be engaged ALL THE TIME by half a tone (string tuned to make up for that) EXCEPT when the vertical lever would be engaged, in which case the lever would overcome the spring pull, release the changer finger and raise the pitch by half a tone regardless of whether A is engaged or not. The two-pull-rod solution would take care of the split tuning in your MSA. |
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