| Author |
Topic: Yet another tuning thread, but with new info |
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 25 Feb 2024 8:24 am |
|
Many of the times that I see new threads on tunings, I have a little chuckle because most players go through the same struggle, especially when you are coming from guitar or another instrument. I’ve been there and went through the same searching many times. The surest remedy is to pick one tuning and spend enough time with it to get to the point where you almost master it, which can take a few years. But the committment can stave off many of the doubts and keep you focused on achieving some level of mastery. When you get to the point where you find yourself needing some other things, you start tweaking it until you reach the limits of tweakability.
I’ve been through this a few times and each time settled into a tuning only to ultimately arrive at peak tweakability. C6 is one of the most flexible of all tunings, and the reason why I think it is so is because most of the tweaks are in a useful range of frequencies (whereas with A6, for example, some of the tweaks are in the low end and are less useful IMO). But that’s not the point of this thread.
I committed to really mastering C6 tuning the best I could because I wanted only to use a single neck with a single tuning, and the C13 Jules Ah See tuning seemed to give me everything I needed. As I got deeper into it, I started removing strings until I eventually ended up back at 6 strings in an effort to go deeper inside. This was the basic C6. My two CDs were recorded using C13 and C6, occasionally using tweaks. When I listen back to the recordings, while I am proud of them, I find that they represent a snapshot in time, and that I don’t hear myself wanting to play that way anymore.
So, once again I’ve undertaken the process of retooling and trying to tap into sounds that I’d like to hear from my own fingers. I started studying Hindustani classical techniques in an effort to build my technique, and while I love the approach, the tunings used (generally just the notes E B E B or D A D A, or sometimes with a 3rd) are not that conducive for the music I like to play, although for blues and such, it really is great.
I remember speaking with Johnny Case about Tommy Morrell and he told about Tom’s unique pedal steel tuning where used the notes of the standard guitar tuning on one of his necks—in fact, he recorded it on Willie Nelson’s Lucky Old Sun. This really got me thinking. Though I have been playing steel almost exclusively for almost two decades now, I could never eliminate the thinking in guitar.
I tried a few different variations until finally hitting paydirt with a tuning that scratches several itches for me: all fourths tuning. E A D G C F.
Gone are the chords and harmonies, but after serious study of all the harmonic possibilities of C6 and its variations, I am less interested now in steel guitar as a harmony instrument, but am recognizing it more now as a melodic instrument, maybe serving a role as a cello or violin or any other number of melodic instruments. This may have been a sublimal goal all along, I don’t know. But ultimately I’m more interested in expressing melodies and improvising, and all fourths tuning seems to eliminate a lot of the quirkiness of the way things lay out on the neck in other tunings. Interestingly enough, several guitarists have used all 4ths tuning, including Stanley Jordan and later Allan Holdsworth.
I’ll share a few of my C6 tweaks later on in the thread. I think you might find some of them pretty interesting. C6 will always be a part of what I do, especially in my ragtime studies, but for personal creative expression I have a new path. You may not hear from me for a long while. 
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
 |
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 25 Feb 2024 10:12 am
|
|
| I'm sure what ever direction you head it will be interesting Mike. I can definitely relate. Looking forward to hearing what you come up with. |
|
|
|
Orville Johnson
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
|
Posted 25 Feb 2024 10:27 am
|
|
I ran across a book long ago at Powell's Books in Portland that posited that our standard guitar tuning EADGBE was WRONG (the author was adamant about that) and the standard guitar tuning should really be in 4ths. That is easily accomplished by raising your B string to C and your high E to F.
I tuned one of my guitars that way and experimented with it for a few weeks. I couldn't really get used to the sound of the new chord voicings I had to play for my first position chords but I did really like the ease of playing scale positions and melodies. Like the violin or other stringed instruments tuned in the same interval all the way across, being able to use the same fingerings and patterns vertically and horizontally makes playing and finding melodies a lot easier. Get rid of the pesky third!
But, as you noted, chordal playing is less satisfying. |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 25 Feb 2024 11:34 am
|
|
This feels like kind of a full circle time for me.
Here is one of my favorite C6 tweaks. I came up with it to accomodate the sophisticated horn arrangements of Oliver Nelson, one of my true musical heroes. I also used it in quite a few other arrangements but the tune below is the only recorded version of it.
C E G Ab C Eb from low to high. C/Ab tuning. I don’t see the point of giving it a chord name, but you call it AbMaj7b13 C7#9b13 (noting there is no 7th in the tuning) or CmiMaj3rdb13, which as far as I know is not even a chord. Pretty useless and not helpful. But I did tend to use it in minor tonalities, though the Maj7 chord on strings 1-4 is luscious.
https://mikeneer.bandcamp.com/track/stolen-moments
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 25 Feb 2024 11:39 am
|
|
As a loose metaphor, this reminds me of the opposite of how Sol Hoopii’s tuning evolution went.
From fast virtuosic high bass single note lines, utilizing every trick possible open strings, to the low bass E6th tuning E C# G# E B E which often more relaxed, more chordal and utilized those awesome slants on the c. 1938 Decca recordings to mimic jazz harmonies of the day.
Then ultimately the old E13th E C# G# E D B, playing slower harmonized gospel, but still some awesome Hawaiian stuff like on the Tutmarc tapes.
I would see your old posts about the low bass E6th tuning, and at one point you indicated that you wanted to write a book on it! A part of me lamented the fact that you gave up that tuning and that you restrung Sol’s guitar away from E C# G# E D B.
I think adding the D in there gives the tuning a lot more versatility. C6th is arguably more versatile but it is not the same sound.
I always thought it was interesting that on your doubleneck, you had C13th on the other neck with the strings backwards! What became of that?
Anyway, I have actually messed with tunings with the same interval between strings, up to a major third (so didn’t try fourths) and my favorite was a whole tone scale.
Less range, probably good for Juju 
With fourths I imagine chromatic and scalar stuff would be more awkward on steel, unlike guitar, but intervallic stuff would be easier.
There are a lot of Indian guys playing single note steel guitar on youtube without any harmony, and I have never been very impressed with that at all. At that point, why not just play armpit slide guitar? I’d imagine the actual classical players are more compelling if you have any listening recommendations.
To me, a large part of the majesty of the instrument comes from the diverse harmonies made possible by different tunings.
Melodic playing is important too, but when making a tuning decision, it is hard to ignore that McIntire and Sol Hoopii demonstrated that amazing lines could be played even on a seemingly awkward arrangement like top four E C# G# E.
On the other hand, the tuning tweaks on A6th being voiced lower can also be seen as an advantage, as you have more familiar base tuning above them to stay oriented. The advantage of the 5th on top is immense too IMO, for melodic and harmonic purposes.
Though Chris Scruggs just hits a fast octave harmonic on the G string when he needs that fifth on C6th, very smooth!
One of the classic tweaks for C6th is D9th. But perhaps D9th came first. Is C6th (then called Amin7th) a tuning variation on D9th?
The original 1940 Rainbows Over Paradise sheet music, arranged by the brilliant Eddie Bush.
E C A F# E C (same middle 6 strings a minor third higher as my favorite B11th E C# A F# D# C# A B)
As for Tommy Morrell’s pedal steel tuning, I wonder if that is something he divulged or was deduced. b0b once said he asked Tom how he tempered his F# string in E13th, and he immediately turned around and walked away! |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 25 Feb 2024 1:29 pm
|
|
Interesting! I'll enjoy hearing what you do with it. 4ths? Instant McCoy Tyler.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Last edited by Andy Volk on 26 Feb 2024 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 25 Feb 2024 6:22 pm
|
|
| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
To me, a large part of the majesty of the instrument comes from the diverse harmonies made possible by different tunings.
Melodic playing is important too, but when making a tuning decision, it is hard to ignore that McIntire and Sol Hoopii demonstrated that amazing lines could be played even on a seemingly awkward arrangement like top four E C# G# E.
As for Tommy Morrell’s pedal steel tuning, I wonder if that is something he divulged or was deduced. b0b once said he asked Tom how he tempered his F# string in E13th, and he immediately turned around and walked away! |
Joe, while there is no doubt that Sol and Dick played amazing stuff in whatever tunings they used, everyone has to find out for themseleves who they are as musicians. The music that I grew up listening to had a lot to do with my musical worldview, though I have always made it a point of studying the history of music, whether the steel guitar or any other instrument. The pursuit of learning their styles was an important tool in helping me develop my playing, but their music is not my music. And imagine how they might have been affected by hearing the developments in music that happened after their deaths. They were great musicians, and I am sure they would have been curious about all of it, though Sol’s last years seem rather sad to me.
Playing an instrument tuned in fourths is difficult, but as proven by many great players, not an insurmountable task. This is why I have chosen to pursue these studies. Though I can’t really describe and it would maybe be a little too personal to do so, there is an element of playing that I desire for my own playing and I am taking the steps to make it happen. This has nothing to do with anyone else’s playing. It has taken a great deal of work to get to the point where I could finally approach music that I was passionate about but also where there were no real role models to emulate. One of the things that still kind of boggles the mind is that the most significant role models for playing this instrument, with only a few exceptions, were active 60-70 years ago and more. That doesn’t seem right.
I do enjoy exploring and fooling with crazy ideas, and the reverse tuning was one of them. That was made possible by having one too many necks.
Tom Morrell confided these things to Johnny Case, who was a confidant as well as a felow musician and producer of his recordings.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 25 Feb 2024 7:46 pm Re: Yet another tuning thread, but with new info
|
|
| Mike Neer wrote: |
all fourths tuning. E A D G C F.
|
I messed around with that tuning on guitar, but never of steel. Looks like it has a lot of possibilities with those Am, Am7 (C6), C, F, Fmaj7, Dm, and Dm7 (F6) chords laid out on those strings with no slants.
I guess that tuning is an inverted/scrambled Dm11
(D F A C E G)
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
|
|
|
Marc Muller
From:
Neptune,NJ USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2024 4:53 am
|
|
| For melodic stuff have to say the C diatonic is worth a try. When something isn't quite sitting on the C6, G or D it always seems to work really nicely on the diatonic. |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 26 Feb 2024 5:24 am
|
|
| Marc Muller wrote: |
| For melodic stuff have to say the C diatonic is worth a try. When something isn't quite sitting on the C6, G or D it always seems to work really nicely on the diatonic. |
Thanks for that. My goal previously was to play in a more seamless fashion, and with C6 I was able to achieve that across the strings and by shifting positions, but now I am more interested in playing along the length of the string, which is where the fourths tuning comes in. This is in part due to the Indian influence, and the fourths tuning is my spin on the Carnatic tuning that I copped from L. Shankar and Prasanna.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2024 6:38 am Re: Yet another tuning thread, but with new info
|
|
| Mike Neer wrote: |
I tried a few different variations until finally hitting paydirt with a tuning that scratches several itches for me: all fourths tuning. E A D G C F.
Gone are the chords and harmonies, but after serious study of all the harmonic possibilities of C6 and its variations, I am less interested now in steel guitar as a harmony instrument, but am recognizing it more now as a melodic instrument, maybe serving a role as a cello or violin or any other number of melodic instruments. This may have been a sublimal goal all along, I don’t know. But ultimately I’m more interested in expressing melodies and improvising, and all fourths tuning seems to eliminate a lot of the quirkiness of the way things lay out on the neck in other tunings. Interestingly enough, several guitarists have used all 4ths tuning, including Stanley Jordan and later Allan Holdsworth.
|
I think this tuning would be very attractive to players coming from guitar. Definitely would simplify scale building. I play a minor 3rds tuning on my pedal steel, so I can relate with the Idea of a symmetric tuning. Now I am thinking about possible pedal changes to a 4ths tuning! Steel guitar puzzles are fun  I saw Stanley Jordan with Bela Fleck at a smallish outdoor venue in the early 90's. Just WOW! While I also lament the idea of abandoning the idea of chords and harmonies, I can also see it as completely liberating.. Makes me think of Ornette Coleman. I read A Harmolodic Life in high school and it has really inspired the way I think about things ever since! Here are 30 quotes...
https://www.bookey.app/quote-author/ornette-coleman |
|
|
|
David Cook
From:
Florida, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2024 6:54 pm
|
|
| The Puerto Rican quatro is tuned in 4ths and they use it melodically a lot |
|
|
|
Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
|
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 27 Feb 2024 8:01 am
|
|
For anyone interested in playing tonal music, I feel a chord-based tuning is almost essential. And I think that C6 and other 6th based tunings are perfect for playing any kind of tonal music, including jazz, though you will run into difficulties as the music becomes more harmonically sophisticated. But I have no complaints whatsoever about the things I was able do with C6 that I didn't think were possible for me. As a steel player and interpreter of classic compositions, I will always be able to utilize my C6 knowledge--in fact, there is no way I could see using anything else for some of my side projects like the American songbook.
My musical interests have always been wide, and I spent a lot of time (pre-steel guitar) listening to non-Western music. I am definitely wanting to take a more modal approach to music (and on the down low, atonal, but that's another story). This would not be possible with other tunings I am fluent in, at least not in the way that I would like it to be. If I was to state what my goal is musically, it would be as a creator, which is not something that I have done much of in the past, especially since taking up steel guitar.
I have always enjoyed being part of the steel guitar community and sharing some of the things I've discovered in the process. I kind of feel like I "grew up" here, which is both embarrassing and comforting at the same time. It has made it less of a lonely experience, which something like learning to play a new instrument and reinventing yourself can be. I'm always thankful for my SGF fam.
I am so stoked about this, but like any other time I've made abrupt turns, there is a difficult period. I'm just gonna take it one step at a time and I hope that I have enough years left in me to get to the next plateau.
Ps: One of the cool things about 4ths tuning, from a C6-related perspective, is the C second string! You have no idea how comforting that is to me--it has replaced the need for the E first string.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Matt Berg
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 27 Feb 2024 8:56 am Guitar Alchemist
|
|
Richard Lloyd's tutorial highlights the magic of the armpit guitar's tuning in 4ths on the lower strings, but suggests that this was lost so that we could have the symmetry of E's on the top and bottom.
Useful for chording for sure, but certainly gets in the way of consistent melodic organization.
Keep us posted Mike! |
|
|
|
Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
|
Posted 27 Feb 2024 10:23 am
|
|
Mike,
I am looking forward to hearing examples of the music you will create with this tuning and am grateful that you are willing to share your ideas so freely with the members of this forum.
From my perspective the steel guitar is still a very young instrument and it is much too soon for it to be locked into a narrow view of how to play it.
I stated in a post earlier in this year how the steel guitar has been source of endless innovation and exploration - it is an unlikely and remarkable story and the is little to support the notion of a traditional approach to the instrument.
I choose to use the tunings: C6, A (High bass) and C#m because they allow me to play the music that I enjoy playing. If my ears take me in a different direction I will gladly try another approach.
Keep us posted.
Gary Meixner |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 28 Feb 2024 9:42 am
|
|
Interesting update/development.
I have enjoyed exploring the all fourths tuning and I like the challenge that it presents--something so familiar and yet so unfamiliar at the same time.
But a simple tweak I have made to string 1 by tuning it down to E has made this a more viable tuning for steel guitar.
I'm still exploring, but this is making a lot of sense to me.
I haven't quit on C6 and I continue to teach it and assemble materials both instructional and musical. In fact, this new tweak to 4ths tuning keeps me connected to it.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 29 Feb 2024 9:33 am
|
|
Considering how common the fifth on top A (or G) tuning and root on top E (or D) tuning are, I always thought it was interesting that the third on top major tuning was so neglected.
It exists as the C6th of course, but the A string interrupts the straight ECG triad.
The forward slant on those top three strings (gives a root on top major triad) is a really nice, bluesy effect.
Open C tunings were apparently used sometimes. Here is an interesting period tab for Yacky Hicky Dula in C high bass — an easy, worthwhile retune from A high bass.
hi-to-lo E C G E C G
Anyway, I just tried the E C G D A E tuning now in question. It was a straight forward retune from F#9th (E C# G# E A# F#)..
I think that the F to E string drop makes for a tuning that is a lot less weird, but still novel (I am not aware of another 6/9 tuning… maybe C6th with D on top?)
I was able to find some cool traditional sounds on it pretty fast. Here’s a little ending in F.
(excuse my scratchy playing and out of tune slants, it was too early to plug in )
https://vocaroo.com/1lXyoQ95HbEz
This tuning has one of my favorite slant tricks thats also present in F#9th.
The first chord is an F minor 7th without the fifth. Then, with a forward split up a fret, the b7 and b3 are raised into their major counterparts!
| Code: |
E x
C 8 -> 9
G 8 -> 9
D x
A 8 8
E x |
This tuning also has that intervallic relationship on the G D and low E strings, so these chords can be slid quickly all over the place like in the sound clip above.
I am definitely looking forward to see what Mike does with this tuning! |
|
|
|
Lloyd Graves
From:
New York, USA
|
Posted 29 Feb 2024 6:23 pm
|
|
| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
Open C tunings were apparently used sometimes. Here is an interesting period tab for Yacky Hicky Dula in C high bass — an easy, worthwhile retune from A high bass.
hi-to-lo E C G E C G
|
Thanks for introducing me to a great tune! I'd never heard it before. Do you think that that is the tuning Felix Mendelson used? |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 1 Mar 2024 5:46 pm
|
|
There is a logic and symmetry to the all fourths tuning. Seems like it would work really well on fretted guitar too.
It’s definitely not something that I can see myself using. I need the “security blanket” of 1 3 5 intervals, and maybe a power chord strum somewhere in my tuning.
I am definitely looking forward to hearing what you can do with the tuning Mike.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
|
|
|
BJ Burbach
From:
New York, USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2024 5:17 pm A4
|
|
Mike, don't go too far under cover, because some of us have strung up A4 guitars.
I used it for a year some years back, but I am not good at tapping and couldn't give up bass lines and strumming.
I did love moving in any direction and you can add as many strings as you want and nothing really changes. How about an A4 Eharp?
For now I am working on C13 JAS.
But, we will keep a lookout for developments.......
BJ
Last edited by BJ Burbach on 20 Sep 2024 3:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Lloyd Graves
From:
New York, USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2024 6:14 pm
|
|
One of my favorite steel recordings is Patches, with Sebastian M and Ken Emerson. I believe it's Ken that plays a whole mess of tasteful bass runs on his steel. In theory, it seems that my (limited) experience with rhythm guitar would make that back up approach almost within my grasp. With that in mind, if anyone ever gives me a D6, of be willing to try this 4ths tuning on the second neck.
I just need to find a benefactor!
But I'm the meantime, I can practice it on a standard guitar, I suppose. |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 24 Mar 2024 9:34 am
|
|
Back to Earth here. Keeping a guitar strung up with all 4ths tuning, but I don't think there's a path forward for me.
I haven't had the itch to experiment with tunings in quite a long time, which has been really good for focusing my playing, but once I started playing with a Carnatic tuning (E B E B E B) for the lessons I have been taking, I thought there might be other viable options. Maybe there are, but just not for me. I am now incorporating the techniques I have learned back into my C6-based approach.
On the other hand, this was not a waste of time. I feel like my playing has evolved a bit in the past few months in that I am now able to use the bar more freely and up and down the length of the strings, and it has reinforced my ability to improvise more freely and chromatically and with a balanced approach. Win/win.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
