| Author |
Topic: question about compensators |
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 1 Feb 2024 3:56 pm |
|
I have a zero pedal that raises G# to A# on the front neck, string 6. GFI ultra.
I'd like to have 2 separate pitches for that pull- one when it is used on its own, slightly sharper, and one when combined with the A pedal's C#, that would be about 15-20 cents flatter...
Can I add a split tune rod so that when the A pedal is engaged with pedal zero, it lowers that A# pull on zero pedal a small amount? I don't want the open 6 G# or that basic A# raise on its own to be affected at all.
Thanks-
A |
|
|
 |
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 1 Feb 2024 4:48 pm
|
|
| Very interesting scenario. I don't think I've ever seen this exact use of a split compensator pull used in this way. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. The one bug in the added-rod method of split tuning is the tendency for the final pitch to differ depending on which pull is engaged first. So that might present some tail chasing until you can nail down consistency of touch. But on the other hand the amount of pull of the compensator might so slight as to make this 'bug' imperceptible. |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 1 Feb 2024 8:17 pm
|
|
Yes Its a bit of a head scratcher.
I'm not sure how I would go about adding the compensator/ split rod...
Would I engage both pedals for A# & C#, then add an extra rod and tune it to the desired A# pitch?
How would I do this without disrupting the open string 6 G#?
I've had this A# pull for a couple years and its been functional, usable, tuned between the two extremes of open B and the C# on pedal A.
Could be I'm trying to 'fix something that isn't broken', and I'm willing to accept that. But it'd be great to iron this out if possible.. |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 1 Feb 2024 9:08 pm
|
|
| Andrew Frost wrote: |
How would I do this without disrupting the open string 6 G#?
|
Yeah -- I didn't think this through. This is an obvious problem and I don't see a way around it. So I have to change my answer to no, I can't see a way it could work.
This is a case where cabinet drop would be your friend. |
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 1 Feb 2024 11:07 pm
|
|
For just the changes you described you could do something with multiple compensators, but it starts to become a fool's errand pretty quickly. The biggest problem is that whatever you do with compensators on the A pedal to alter string 6 for the zero pedal will also affect your B pedal in the same way, so you would need additional compensators to correct that. For just the zero + A pedal change you described you could use two compensator rods tied to your A pedal, one that would lower 6 the desired amount when combined with the zero pedal, and one that would raise 6 back that same amount such that the net pitch change on string 6 is 0 with just the A pedal alone. That added raise compensator on 6 would be overridden by the longer raise on the zero pedal when the two pedals are combined so only the lowering compensator would have any affect in that situation. The problem is now that your B pedal will also be flat when combined with the A pedal, so you would have to devise a separate compensation scheme on the B pedal to correct for that, and on and on it goes... Bar slants are the answer 
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 2 Feb 2024 4:59 am
|
|
Andrew, you sound like someone who prefers natural intervals where possible, but equal temperament was developed for the very purpose of enabling one note to do two jobs.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
|
Posted 2 Feb 2024 6:23 am
|
|
Here’s a possible solution and although this is for BC compensation it might work for your situation. For now only a paper solution.
How it works:
B pedal contains a special hinged finger connected with a rivet to the 6th string crank.
When pedal C is engaged, stop collar has no connection to the swivel on the hinged finger.
When the B pedal is engaged, there is likewise no connection to the stop collar. (hinged finger is held tight against cross-rod shaft by string tension)
When both B and C are engaged, stop collar contacts swivel and pushes hinged finger back some amount determined by fine tuning with thumb screw.
I have more drawings somewhere in my computer. 
_________________
Jerry Jones |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 2 Feb 2024 8:52 am
|
|
I appreciate the replies here. My suspicion that I'm trying to fix something that isn't broken might be on point...
Jerry, very interesting. Yes, this is what I'm after in essence - something that detunes one of two pedals that is activativted only when the two pedals are used in combination, and is otherwise dormant and out of the way. Pretty much what I'm seeking, but for that zero pedal and the zero/A combination...
Have you tried this with any tangible success? |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 2 Feb 2024 8:56 am
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| equal temperament was developed for the very purpose of enabling one note to do two jobs. |
yes, for better or worse.  |
|
|
|
Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 2 Feb 2024 5:04 pm
|
|
Jon has made that comment "This is a case where cabinet drop would be your friend." a few times, and after reading many years worth of compensator posts and thinking about my F#s, I decided that I really don't need more stuff to have to keep tuned up perfectly or lose the benefit... and he is exactly right..my Williams has not enough cab drop to "fix" it, but quite enough to sound just fine...a little goes a long way...
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 1:06 am Re: question about compensators
|
|
| Andrew Frost wrote: |
I have a zero pedal that raises G# to A# on the front neck, string 6. GFI ultra.
I'd like to have 2 separate pitches for that pull- one when it is used on its own, slightly sharper, and one when combined with the A pedal's C#, that would be about 15-20 cents flatter...
Can I add a split tune rod so that when the A pedal is engaged with pedal zero, it lowers that A# pull on zero pedal a small amount? I don't want the open 6 G# or that basic A# raise on its own to be affected at all.
Thanks-
A |
I've long thought about compensated pitch pulls depending on what it is used with.
On a JI tuning there a legitimate needs for this on both tunings.
I have NEVER seen it addressed. You might want to post this on the "Builder's" section of the Forum as there are a couple of participants which are up for new ideas.
Here's my take:
1- a digital pitch shifting PSG (currently being discussed on this Forum too) would solve that issue at the push of a few touch screen options.
2- I was an RC model air plane builder in my teens.
One of my plane had a V-tail (rudder and elevators combined). To control this with 2 servos (one for elevation the other for lateral control), the two servos were connected to a "mixer". Meaning that the servo which would do the lateral function (left-right) would sit on a slide pushed-pulled by the elevation-servo.
kind'a like this example here: https://youtu.be/h6GrhfN52lQ
This idea has been with me relative to PSG since I realized that there was another way than to tune everything to a tuner (ET -> JI) and thus also ran into issues with fixed pitch pulls. (new RC systems now have an electronic device to control 2 servos)
Here is the old mechanical version of a "mixer" for V-tails which is food for thinking on how to mechanically condition one "pull" on another "pull"
Here's a a very different idea of a conditioned leverage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf6M-9hJrwU
I think this is food for thought and yes, I believe there is an adaptation for PSG which could be extrapolated from the principles above.
... J-D.[/img]
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 1:08 am
|
|
| Jerry Jones wrote: |
Here’s a possible solution and although this is for BC compensation it might work for your situation. For now only a paper solution.
How it works:
B pedal contains a special hinged finger connected with a rivet to the 6th string crank.
When pedal C is engaged, stop collar has no connection to the swivel on the hinged finger.
When the B pedal is engaged, there is likewise no connection to the stop collar. (hinged finger is held tight against cross-rod shaft by string tension)
When both B and C are engaged, stop collar contacts swivel and pushes hinged finger back some amount determined by fine tuning with thumb screw.
I have more drawings somewhere in my computer.
|
INTERESTING!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 5:24 am
|
|
| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
| Jon has made that comment "This is a case where cabinet drop would be your friend." a few times, and after reading many years worth of compensator posts and thinking about my F#s, I decided that I really don't need more stuff to have to keep tuned up perfectly or lose the benefit... and he is exactly right..my Williams has not enough cab drop to "fix" it, but quite enough to sound just fine...a little goes a long way... |
My Williams has a LOT of drop. I have 'standard' compensators on the F#'s (1 & 7) and I use them just a smidge on the A pedal but could pretty much do without them. But I do still use them.
Ironically I have a steel being built that promises to have very little drop and while I'm not going to worry about a thing until I play it for a while, 'on paper' it would seem to call for more aggressive use of compensators (which are included in my setup specs).
My best case scenario is to train myself to tune up and play as straight up as possible. Leaning too hard on overly-sweetened tunings is not my idea of ideal, especially when most of my fixations on 'perfection' occur in my practice room and not in the real world. |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 7:19 am
|
|
I have just assigned the 6th raise (to A#) to P4 (adjacent to my 'Day' A pedal). I must say that it's very touchy, pitch-wise, and I've begun to consider a wound 6th for the first time in fifty years.
This change, though, works so well when I also engage my E-D# lower and replicates C6 pedal 7. This morning? It sounds in tune; last night, I was chasing my tail! (Tiredness?)
I've long been pondering raising the 4th to F# on the same pedal.
Will a wound 6th help or hinder?
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 7:25 am
|
|
Wound 6 makes a large difference in tuning stability.
However, if you also lower the 6 on a lever, the difference in lever travel is not incidental. It is huge. |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 8:15 am
|
|
I don't lower 6, Jon. I raise it along with 1 and 2 on LKL2, but I'm going to move that change to LKV.
Gauge? Still an .020"?
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 8:28 am
|
|
I've used everything from .020 to .024 -- the 24 is to squeeze every last bit of lower leverage out of it.
Warning -- it is a different sound. on the plus side, it does not have some of the howls that a plain .020 has. But it can sound kind of gauzy, fuzzy. Less attack, not as present. On my new guitar, because of the promise of greatly improved stability, I am opting for a plain string.
Let's note that this is a bit of a hijack of this thread. But back on the topic of 'cabinet drop can be your friend', creating its own compensation --- a plain string would be far more effective than a wound string. |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 8:44 am
|
|
Apologies, Andrew: I did get off the topic a bit but, when I saw you talk of the G#-to-A# raise, my interest was piqued.
I think I only use this pedal in conjunction with the A, or A and B, pedal. That A# is readily available on my 5th string with my RKL.
(Jon: I do lower 6, but only a half-step - along with lowering the 9th.)
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 10:35 am
|
|
Not at all Roger, very much on topic from my point of view.
I do use a 22w on 6. I don't drop it to G or F# anywhere.
I suppose if I used a 20p on 6, the cab drop w zero and Pedal A would indeed temper that A# a little more in the direction I'm seeking, and might be a step closer to a simple fix... |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 10:40 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| You might want to post this on the "Builder's" section of the Forum as there are a couple of participants which are up for new ideas. |
Thank you JD, I may do that... |
|
|
|
Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
|
Posted 3 Feb 2024 12:42 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| Can I add a split tune rod so that when the A pedal is engaged with pedal zero, it lowers that A# pull on zero pedal a small amount? |
Yes it can be done. Had to think a little tho to figure a way that would not mess with the B pedal raise.
You need a flexible link between a pull rod on the A pedal and a pull rod on the zero pedal. The midpoint of this link need the compensating pullrod that will lower the 6th string A# the right amount when both pedals are pressed.
It could probably also be done with a steel wire connected to cross-shafts on both A and zero pedal where the wire would run around a roller at one end of a pullrod(compensation) going to the lower on string 6.
Pressing only one of those pedals would move the lowering rod but it should not activate the lowering finger on the sixth string, but if both pedals are pressed then the lowering would engage.
It is just a matter of calculating the needed leverage so the compensating rod doesnt engage when only one pedal is pressed.
Hope my description is understandable and helps in making those pulls works as intended.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 4 Feb 2024 1:04 am
|
|
| Andrew Frost wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You might want to post this on the "Builder's" section of the Forum as there are a couple of participants which are up for new ideas. |
Thank you JD, I may do that... |
I just DID 
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=397970
I don’t wantbto take away from this thread, but I think “builders” should discuss this… it’s a “Big Deal”, mechnical necessity in JI and totally solvable.
… JD.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
