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Topic: Gary Carter's 'Cold, Cold Heart' |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 9:52 am |
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Why does that happen? That link somehow elasticized the page, making it necessary to scroll laterally.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 11:02 am
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The ascending/descending counterpoint seems to start on fret 12, 7th string. 11th fret,7th and 6th with B pedal and so on.
The chord at about 5" sounds so dense that it could be strings 8 to 1, maybe 1 and 2 raised, maybe the B pedal?
It's a work in progress and I can't get any farther here in the dialysis clinic!!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 11:03 am
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| Awesome !!! |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Jan 2024 7:15 am
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Myself and Flt. Lt. Garden are on the case. Between us (although we're at slight odds on specific points ), we may produce a facsimile that, were Gary himself to chime in, would be proven farcically wrong.
I don't like to copy anything note-for-note (I rarely can, anyway!) but, sometimes, something is so enchanting that I need to know how it was done. This is such an instance.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 11 Jan 2024 7:25 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
Myself and Flt. Lt. Garden are on the case. Between us (although we're at slight odds on specific points ), we may produce a facsimile that, were Gary himself to chime in, would be proven farcically wrong.
I don't like to copy anything note-for-note (I rarely can, anyway!) but, sometimes, something is so enchanting that I need to know how it was done. This is such an instance. |
My ear has never been such that I could how something was exactly played, and then there's these two "Meat Hooks" attached to the end of my wrists, have I told you about them??? 
Aside from those deficiencies I've always felt it was cheating a little if I was copying something exactly ... And as much pride as one can take from being ABLE to exactly pull something off, thats their musical chops not mine, and I have to play what I hear in my own head for better or worse.
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Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
https://www.youtube.com/@steelinatune
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Jan 2024 8:46 am
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Dale:
That, of course, is the problem with copying (or following tab 'by rote'). You've achieved nothing.
Buddy Emmons famously said: "Copying's easy, creating is hard." Although I'd take issue with the first part of the quote (it's not necessarily 'easy'), he was, as usual, on the money.
However, if I look back on 67+ years of playing and learning six-string, this thread reminds me that I absorbed a mountain of knowledge by doing just that: listening, then attempting to replicate the work of better players than me. Then, it was solos and fills by James Burton, Hank Garland, etc., but learning that stuff is what taught me the fingerboard! Before I knew it, I'd unconsciously worked nuances of the material into my own 'library' - not the solo 'verbatim', but tricks and techniques.
I have never had a lesson until two weeks ago when I sat down for two hours with Buck Reid; never on six-string to this day. I didn't have a book and certainly no YouTube, just my ears and, occasionally, a hint or two from another player on the same quest.
Gary Carter coaxes riveting stuff out of E9. If I get this 'down', will I ever use it? Not directly, but it's a lesson in counterpoint and I'm learning some 'outside' positions. If I can't glean from another player who's my superior by miles, it's time to pack it in. I have my comfort-zone: the bits-and-bobs that are mine and I can play fluidly, but I have to push myself sometimes.
Many years ago, I was teamed up with guitarist Billy Bremner. We had such fun! Twin Telecaster parts and playing off each other. When we looked back at our influences, it was no surprise that the list was identical: Jimmy Bryant, Chet, Jerry Reed and so many more. We'd both taken something from these heroes, yet Billy and I had different 'voices' to each other. That, I believe, was our own musicality playing into the equation.
Gary's intro here is a rare instance when I wondered if anyone else out there was as moved by this passage as I have been. Doubtless, I'll move on and retain a fraction of it.
PS: Travis Toy talked of watching Tommy White on TV and hanging on his every note as he attempted to copy it. It hasn't hurt Travis. He now has his own voice in the steel world. Just one example: I bet every great player has done the same. It makes sense for this lesser player to follow suit.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2024 1:16 pm
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Well stated Roger, I just NOW found what you were mentioning to me the other day ...
I remember well lifting the needle off the record trying to figure out what Tom Brumley, Ralph Mooney and Jay McDonald were doing on all those Buck Owens records from the 60's and 70's. I remember experiencing a great deal of joy when I'd figure out what they were doing, or at least thinking I'd figured out what they were doing.
But listen to what I did in the beginning section of Nameless Shuffle... when I did that, thats what I though I was hearing Buddy doing. It WAS NOT!!! ... My ear has never been such that I've been able to copy things exactly because I seem unable to hear things exactly. And then of course when I touch the strings I have a new sound in my ear like seeing a squirrel and the original sounds I was hearing and trying to copy are GONE.
This may be why I've taken the approach that IF I can hear it to copy it copy it, and if I can't don't beat myself up over it, but take those parts that I can copy and extrapolate those things into "My" things. I think perhaps my lack of "THAT" ability has caused me to have my own voice or style for better or worse. I've always said, if I could play what was in Buddy's or Lloyds or John's head I would, cause I'd rather be playing what was in their heads rather than what's in my head, but I'm kinda stuck with that, probably because I was never dedicated enough to "Breakthrough" some of my personal obstacles.
On a side note, yet somewhat connected, there was a time when I could tell who was playing on what record or song because of their style, because of their distinctive voice. Maybe its just me, and maybe because I don't listen to music like I once did, but for the most part I can't tell you with any certainty who's playing on what today. Kinda like everyone singing the lead line and nobody singing harmony. 
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Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
https://www.youtube.com/@steelinatune
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Bob Grado
From:
Holmdel, New Jersey
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Posted 5 Feb 2024 7:25 am
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| Quote: |
That, of course, is the problem with copying (or following tab 'by rote'). You've achieved nothing. |
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree. Taking the time to not only learn the notes of a specific passage but also the touch or feel of the run can only enhance one’s own playing. Finding a place to apply what you painstakingly just learned to different areas only adds to your library of tools in my opinion. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 5 Feb 2024 9:35 am
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Bob: Exactly!
All of us have learned from our predecessors, whether it's Paul Franklin or a bottom-feeder like me. You start by emulating something that's caught your ear and, inevitably, it lodges itself into your brain and it becomes a part of your playing.
Gary's CCH is such a piece (for me); musically obtuse and far away from standard E9 fare. I don't want to ape it exactly but, when I've got it, I'll know more about the tuning than I did.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Andy Vance
From:
Graham, Washington, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2024 10:18 am
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I really needed to read this post today as I have been working on a passage from a George Strait song and man am I struggling to copy it but, in trying to I have gotten it close as well as learned a couple things I stumbled on while trying to figure it out. Was nice to read the different viewpoints from you players that are all far better at this instrument than I am.
I'll keep practicing! |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Feb 2024 10:52 am
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Andy!
For a short while, my 1/2 raise was disabled.
Now it's restored, I'm close to getting this arcane intro.
I'm indebted to Gary himself who was kind enough to film a video of two later spots in the intro (just for me!).
I'm still on my own re: the first five seconds.
But - I think I have it!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Bob Grado
From:
Holmdel, New Jersey
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Posted 11 Feb 2024 11:17 am
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Im pretty confident i got the first few seconds but im having a problem with the descending bass line on the 8th string while maintaining the drone E on the 4th string at the 12th fret . How can you do the descending run using your knee lever which lowers both strings 4 and 8? I tried a raise bar slant on 4 to maintain the E but then I’m out of position for strings 1 and 3?
Sorry for the rant but this is very frustrating. I’m hoping Gary chimes in to say he overdubbed this part and it’s impossible to play live. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Feb 2024 12:52 pm
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I don't expect Gary to chime in.
He told me that it requires a KL(pedal?) raising 4 and 6 to F# and A# respectively.
I do have that pull, but I got very close without using it.
Now: back to the drawing-board armed with that knowledge.
GC makes full use of the 1/2 raise in all his videos: pedals down or pedals up.
He also has a KL raising 2 and 9 a half-step.
It's standard 'Emmons' apart from those, I think.
Oh, and he uses the Franklin pedal later in the intro.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Feb 2024 1:04 pm
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Jeff Garden has approximated the basics of the intro.
I'm not sure I agree with Jeff's first couple of measures but he's got to the heart of the rest.
Half of the confusion is the presence (deliberate) of harmonic overtones when he's at the 12th fret.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Bob Grado
From:
Holmdel, New Jersey
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Posted 11 Feb 2024 1:14 pm
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| Thanks for that info Roger. I don’t have that change so I guess that explains why I can’t play it. Wouldn’t it be nice to have one “ standard” copedent so we know everything we hear is available to play? Like every other instrument on the planet? I’m sure that’s a topic heading somewhere on here. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Feb 2024 1:21 pm
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I sort-of like things as they are!
There's the air of mystery, such as in this piece.
I have some less-frequently-seen pulls (the 9/6 lower, the 7th raising to A#) that are useful to me.
I don't have the Franklin pedal and I don't lower the 6th, yet these are commonplace, if not 'standard'.
I think it depends upon what we individually want to play.
Gary Carter (my favourite E9 player!) has his own ideas on setup.
May it ever be so.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2024 6:27 pm
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Dale, Roger, et al:
My advice to students for transcribing steel parts is learn to sing whatever sticks out as the song melody or the key note in a riff. Those notes will be a big help in revealing where something is likely played.
When I transcribe, I learn to sing the high/melody note section by section. Then bust my butt taking stabs at where the locations are. I also slow way down tracks in Transcribe! and make and save loops of discrete sections for ease of transcribing at a later time.
There's always a key note that sometimes helps point the way.
Transcribing is hard work and time-consuming, but when you've nailed it, you have pride of ownership: you really KNOW the riff, and hopefully put some thought into understanding where else it can be used in tunes.
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 19 Feb 2024 5:27 am
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True, John.
One soon learns how to identify how/where a phrase is played by listening for either glissandos or pedal changes (or both).
That's unique to our instrument.
Initially, I made the mistake of trying to assimilate two and three lines together; I was going too far.
Isolating the descending/ascending lines naturally made it clearer.
The 'elephant in the room', though, is that GC has three changes I don't have.
The Franklin pedal, raising 4 and 6 a whole-step and raising 2/9 a semitone.
There's one spot where I'm pretty sure he's covering strings 9-1 with the bar and lowering the 10th to A!
That's quite a tricky technique to pull off 'on the fly'.
This 30 seconds is 'thinking man's E9'!
I don't know why I'm so drawn to it; it's hauntingly pretty.
I'm getting closer!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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