Tube Amps vs Modelers

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Like most guitar players, I've been a pretty dyed-in-the-wool tube amp guy forever. For guitar, I haven't heard anything that really equals a good tube amp, especially when you're going for a pushed-power-tube sound. I haven't heard anything that I think is close to, for example, a good Marshall or tweed Fender. Everything I've heard just grates me - the sounds have gone from clean to too-distorted and gritty. Having played (but not bought) some recent modelers, I think that is still true, for me at least.

For clean, I think modeling has tended to work pretty well, right from the beginning. I started using modeling when the original kidney-bean Pod came out - what, 2000 or so? I just tweaked the Deluxe Reverb model, comparing side-by-side with my real Deluxe Reverbs. OK, not exactly the same, but not bad, as long as I didn't push it too hard. The distorted models just sounded gritty and fizzy to me - I tried to dial it out, but it didn't work. I'm sure there was some latency. But honestly, the models were not nearly as complex on these early modelers, and I assume the computational demands were not bad and I didn't find latency unreasonable. My main issue was that it was impossible to remove the compression. I often use a compressor for guitar, so I was able to work with it. But that is why I moved on for use with steel.

Maybe the latest and greatest is better, but I guess I'm with Bob C - I'm not giving up my tube amps. Now, I often use a Quilter Tone Block 201 for pedal steel - it sounds great. Not a modeler, just a very good sounding amp that happens to put out 200 Watts RMS and weighs 4 pounds. I use the Full Q voicing and minimal EQ - that is the true test of an amp to me - does it sound good set pretty flat? I have recorded pedal steel direct with that amp a number of times. I added a little reverb and delay, that's it, and it got printed with no diddling.

I think for me, on every modeler I've tried, and I've tried a lot, I lose a sense of directness and immediacy that an analog amp gives. Maybe some of that is latency, but I've put some of these signals on a dual-trace scope (direct out of guitar vs. modeler output) and I didn't think it was unreasonable. I definitely get a lot more latency doing a crowd walk on guitar - it's around a millisecond per foot away from the sound source (amplifier). 10 milliseconds is barely audible, but definitely there. 20-30 milliseconds is definitely noticeable. So I don't think that's what bugs me. I tend to think it's the residual compression resulting from companding. I don't notice it in a mix - it's strictly a feel thing for me.

My issue with profilers is that I just want a traditional amp user interface. I'm confident that something like a Kemper can deliver something very close to the sound of a particular amp at a particular setting. But I want to be able to tweak settings on the fly without having to change the profile.

I'm sure modeling and profiling technology is a godsend for people using in-ears. Since I'll never do that, this is all lost on me. I've been forced, at a gig, to go with a direct signal to the house/monitors. I get there, and they say - "Hey, no amps on stage". I get pissed off, but do it. So I keep something - these day, my TB 201, but used to carry a modeler with me - and with my regular pedal board, it's tolerable. But nobody's gonna stick in-ears on me. LOL.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

For me modelers are just getting to the point that I'm willing to switch now. I have Scuffham and Neural DSP plugins as I mentioned, but I only tend to like 1-3 tones in each. That's a tiny percentage of the available tones in each plugin. I've tried pretty much all the plugin software that has a free trial, and didn't like any of them: Mixwave, Line6, Amplitube, etc. So overall I'd say I like less than 1% of all plugin sounds. Probably more like 0.01%. If I hadn't found those few tones that I like, I'd be echoing everything you're saying Dave. It's also the reason I haven't bought an Axe FX yet: I can't do a free trial and I know that I don't like the vast majority of modeled amp tones.

There's another factor though. Plugins can also have their own sound, which is not a direct emulation of a real amp. So while the "modeling" implies copying a real amp, in reality the plugin can end up being its own amp. Rather than considering how close the plugin tone is to the tube amp sound, I've found some plugin tones to be inspiring in their own right.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

I have an AXE III MK2 on the way and in watching videos you can set up your amps with the traditional knobs for bass, treble middle etc. or you can go into major tweaking mode if you desire.

Greg Cutshaw has gotten some great tones from his and I hope to learn how to eliminate pedals and have one integrated unit. TBD
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Mark T

Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12

Ken Morgan · From: Midland, Texas, USA

The real problem I have with modelers in general is the overkill. I’ve yet to meet anyone from studio guy to touring pro to part time gigging to occasional bedroom player that uses more than 1-2 amp models, or most of the hundreds of available effects.

I believe Fender is on the right road with their Tonemaster concepts, 1 amp that behaves almost exactly like their tube counterparts.

I’m just not fond of paying for the 25 other amps that I’ll never use.
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67 Shobud Blue Darling III, scads of pedals and such, more 6 strings than I got room for

Ken Morgan
Midland, TX

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Agreed, Fred.

Ken the amount of choice can certainly be overwhelming, and I doubt anyone actually needs as many amps as a modeler can give you, but for some of these modeler units it costs them pretty much the same to give you 300 amps as it does to give you 1. If you're anything like me you'll probably only use 2-5, but you're not paying for extra amps as much as they are giving you every option possible for the same price.

It's also really nice to have all that stuff available for when someone needs a sound you personally don't like enough to buy separately.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

To be honest, I don't really think modelers would have ever attracted me in the first place if they didn't have a lot of models. While they are convenient and light, I cannot see ultimately replacing my good tube amps with a one-trick-pony modeler. I mean, the Deluxe Reverb models I've tried are decent, but do not replace a real Deluxe Reverb.

But the main reason I moved away from modelers is that the amps that I really didn't want to haul around didn't sound good to me. I mean, who wants to haul around a Marshall stack, or even half- or quarter-stack, if it's not your bread and butter sound? But those types of sounds, to me, have never been acceptable in any modeler I've tried. I've had better luck with a good overdrive/distortion pedal (e.g., Bogner LaGrange for the types of Marshall sounds I like, or a ZenDrive or Simble for a Dumble type of sound) into an old Fender.

The upshot of all of that is that I'm not attracted to amps like the Fender Tonemaster series - and there are others of different amp styles I'd say the same thing about. They take up exactly the same amount of space as the real thing, and aren't the real thing. I understand that there is a certain amount of weight savings - but that is not enough for me to give up my tube amps. The Quilter Tone Blocks give a tiny 4-pound package that I can use with a super-lightweight, small cab, and sounds great with steel (and actually, pretty good for guitar too) - again, to my tastes. So I have two of them, and I always have one in my gig bag. And they have come in bloody handy when a backline amp is total crap, which happens about 50% of the time I'm stuck in that situation.

I also have another issue with a lot of this new technology - as far as I can see, they basically become paperweights once the warranty has expired. Someone please correct me if there are exceptions. But I know the modelers I've owned do eventually break down and are basically unrepairable. The manufacturers said, in various forms, "Sorry, we don't repair these." My friend, to whom I usually bring stuff that I'm not really set up to deal with myself, laughed out loud when I showed him a couple of broken-down modelers. I have never had an old tube amp that couldn't be repaired. Sometimes by myself, sometimes by my friend.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Certainly I wouldn't expect any of the current modelers or software to be around in 50 years. For the software some of it is pretty cheap at about $70 per plugin. You have it "forever" but you're not re-selling it obviously. But if it makes your recording process enjoyable and your records sound great, does it matter?

For the physical modeling gear, it depends how you look at it. The Axe FX II originally sold in 2014 for $2500. On reverb you can see that there are Ax FX II units for about $1000 now. That's about a decade of modeling for -$1500. In contrast, there are lots of tube amps that if you had bought in 2014, you could now sell for a substantial profit. So as far as investment goes I don't there's much question: good, desirable tube amps are probably a better investment.

But if you like all the advantages of modelers we've been talking about, they're pretty inexpensive. I don't know about anyone else but I can easily spend more than $150/year on upkeep of my tube amps, so if I hold on to a modeler for 10 years, that's $1500 I didn't spend on tube amps, which about covers the depreciation of the modeler. The only thing I really lost financially was the possible appreciation of the tube amp, which isn't guaranteed.

Fred H. Anderson · From: Minnesota, USA

Hey all, I want to play around with recording on my computer (mac with LogicPro)
Every plugin or amp sim I try gets distorted when I get things up to volume.

Does anyone have a signal chain they would like to share to get a classic Neil Young/Ben Keith style sound?

Thanks.
BTW, First post here, not sure if I add my rig to the signature or just post here..
I guess for now...

Sho-Bud Maverick
Serial No. 3995
Model 6138

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

From one Fred to another-

What is your signal chain? It is very important to set the input level on your interface before you attempt adding a plugin modeler, or any kind of effects. You want the cleanest sound you can get at the highest volume possible. There should be some kind of meter on the interface that will indicate an overload on the input, and there should also be a way to adjust the level.

Fred H. Anderson · From: Minnesota, USA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I have basically the same setup, but with a Scarlett Solo into Cakewalk BandLab. The amps in the TH3 plugin are definitely not voiced for pedal steel. I have to run “clean” Twin-type amps with the preamp volume around 1 and the master all the way up. EQ is even weirder. Bass and mids nearly off, highs up to about 75%. The bright switch seems to be more of a gain boost. I only use the TH3 stuff for practicing and dinkin around with some effects.

You just have to roll with whatever the engineers thought sounded good when they built the app you’re working with. Sometimes I wonder if any of those guys ever even played a Fender Twin. You get what you pay for, though. The engineers at Boss have been at it a long time, and the things they have done with the Katana are pretty darn good for the money. For actual recording or more serious practice, I just run a line out of it into the Scarlett and skip the CW plugins.

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

For home recording I use the Fender extension pack in Amplitube VST.
Not perfect but good enough in a mix context for home demos and convenient to just plug in direct to record instead of setting up amp and mic.

Will probably buy Milkman plugin next year to play with.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Chris Harwood · From: Kentucky, USA

I bought a Helix partially because my church doesn't allow amps on stage anymore, never the less, the acoustic drum kit is putting out well over 100dB.
I won't go into the IEM that is now needed to hear yourself over the drums...and the church thought saving a few bucks to run it in mono was good enough. Oh....everyone has one earbud hanging out too, destroying their hearing...
OOPS!!!...Wrong thread, sorry
Winking

Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Thanks, Justin.
I played my Tele through a Mesa MkIIc+ for years. It can do clean very well, so I’m interested in trying it. But I’ll give the Cory a spin too.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Chris Grigsby · From: Boulder, CO

I've owned a zillion boutique tube amps over the years and can vouch for the Kemper Profiler and matching 'Kabinet'. Not only is it the first digital amp that has impressed me, but it is the first class D amp I've ever heard that actually sounds like a real tube amp.

Yes, it can be overwhelming with all of its features, but you can also dumb it down as much as you want by loading only a few profiles--it already has dedicated knobs for the amp controls, reverb, and delay settings.

Huge thanks to users on here that hooked me up with some pedal steel amp profiles of Little Walter, Peavey, Webb, Evans, etc...between those and all of the readily available Fender amp profiles there is a lot to choose from for steel.
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Mullen Discovery S10, Hilton VP, Kemper Profiler Head and Kabinet.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Thanks for the post, Chris, I appreciate it!

I've yet to try the capture world, but I would like to. Mark Knopfler was a big influence on me and he switched to using a Kemper for live playing. I'm very interested. The only thing is that the original Kemper was first introduced as far back as 2011. I'm really wondering if a Kemper 2 is just around the corner.

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