Tube Amps vs Modelers

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

I've always been a tube amp guy, but my cousin convinced me I should try Neural DSP plugins. I was very skeptical but 5 mins in to trying some of them I was very impressed. I have since found that I only like Neural DSP plugins and Schuffham Amps Software out of all the software I've tried. However I now play through software at least 90% of the time because of the convenience and the ability to get good tones at super low volume. There are also a bunch of modeling amps in a direct in box, like UA's Dream 65 and a dozen others.

Has anyone left their amplifiers behind completely, in favor of modeling solutions on pedal steel? What do you use? How does it compare to the Neural DSP stuff?

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I have tried multiple modeling amps, but always end up going back to "real" amplification. Not that the modeling isn't accurate, but the latency involved means several milliseconds of delay between the moment my fingers strike the strings and the when the sound actually comes out, while the sampler collects the input, digitizes it, recalculates the waveform, converts it back to analog, and finally sends an impulse to the speaker. Imagine the difference between playing through an amp that is right beside you and having it placed 30-50 feet away. Of course this effect is multiplied if you are playing through a modeling amp some distance away as on a large stage. I like my amp to jump when I hit the strings, not hem and haw for a bit and then spit out the sounds while I am already reaching for the next note.

Probably just me but that's my take.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I use the ToneX pedal and the Fractal FX3 and they have replaced all my transistor and tube amps for both guitar and steel. There is some latency there no doubt but I just don't notice it.

Specifically these hardware modelers have replaced my Fender Princeton Reverb, Fender Steel King, Quilter Travis Toy 15 combo and an Allen Encore that I built. The modelers cover all my recording and practice needs on all instruments. If I need an amp I feed the modeler into the TT15 combo. For practicing and recording the modelers eliminating all the variables of playing in different places.

Playing live is always a crap shoot with any setup but with a modeler, amplified live, you can at least get a nice sounding feed in your ear buds.

https://www.gregcutshaw.com/AXE%20FX%203/AXE%20FX%203.html

https://www.gregcutshaw.com/ToneX%20Pedal/ToneX%20Pedal.html

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

The modeling stuff is getting scary good ! I’m a pretty hard core tube amp guy but I did buy a milkman creamer plug in for mixing mostly because of the tremolo feature. It’s really really good !

I may check into some live modeling rig at some point. Especially for in ears gigs.
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Bob

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

Back when modeling was new, latency really was an issue. I had a Yamaha DG100-212 combo amp – the one with the motorized knobs. The sound was fabulous – but always out of sync, which made it more or less unplayable. But I can't detect any latency at all in my Tone Master Twin, nor with my BOSS wireless transmitter.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Thanks for the responses everyone, I appreciate it. I've only tried modelers the last few years, and the latency has been fine with me.

And wow Greg, thanks so much for those links and all that info! I've been looking at the Fractal stuff from a distance but I've been unable to try it. Those sound samples sound great though. I did try the Helix Native plugin and didn't think much of it, but I did like the layout, and the Fractal has kind of a similar block design for the interface.

I'll have to check out the ToneX stuff more as I'm not familiar with it.

Thanks again everyone!

Corbin Pratt · From: KY

The Strymon Iridium is great. Super simple. You can load in your own IRs.
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CP in Nashville

Show Pro SD-10, Shaw Amplifiers, Kemper

Michael Hartz · From: Decorah, Iowa, USA

I’ve been using a Kemper Profiler live for about 4 years now. For steel I’m using Little Walter 50 profiles with an Eminence Paul Franklin PF350 speaker ir and the sound quality is amazing thru my in ear rig. Night after night, month after month, the sound is exactly the same each gig. The only way it could sound any better at all is when I get my new Rittenberry Prestige next year. 😁

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

Digital modelers keep getting better. I’ve got a couple and they do well but I still prefer a tube amp.

Someone said digital modeling amps are like internet porn. It looks and sounds real but you can’t touch. They look like a real Deluxe Reverb and they sound like a real Deluxe Reverb but they aren’t real Deluxe Reverbs.

Brooks Montgomery · From: Idaho, USA

Anybody have experience or an opinion of the new Boss IR-2 pedal? My news feed had an article from Guitar World, and the hook said:

“Boss takes the fight to Universal Audio and Strymon with its smallest amp and IR pedal to date, the IR-2”

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A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

I've only tried software so far. I haven't gotten into the "amp in a box" stuff, but my understanding is that it's basically the same type of DSP software in a pedal format. That could definitely be useful. I saw that boss one come up on my YouTube feed. I want a chance to try the Fractal stuff but since it's direct order there's no showroom here for me to check out. I guess I could just order an FM3 and hope for the best but that's an expensive way to try something. If I liked it as much as Neural DSP or Schuffham Amps software that would be great. A nice powered speaker and the Fractal Preamp and I'd have everything I wanted it sounds like.

Bob Shilling · From: Berkeley, CA, USA

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

I like Boss products and if that lives up to the hype I will try it.

Andy Vance · From: Graham, Washington, USA

I have went to using the Tonex for all of my in-ear gigs and have really come to like it a lot. I had some help from forum member Joe Rogers, as I couldn't get what I wanted out of the stock models. But with his help, I have exactly what I want to hear now without lugging around my amps. If you go the Tonex route, he can probably assist with different models and such of steel amps.

I have never noticed any latency btw.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

The guitar player in my band just got a Fractal to replace his Dr. Z...well, he still sounds like him, his sound is crisp and accurate, and it does everything he asks of it...but I feel that there somehow is something hard to define missing from the sound that he had with the Dr. Z...I should probably do a blind test...
I'm waiting for Tim to build me a 40 watt Pedal Steel Mini...had one once, and nothing compares to the sound of that amp, pushed into final stage saturation, and unleashing the angels singing ... it is a visceral tone that I just don't see the modelers modeling...but maybe they can, I don't know how they respond to that 'being pushed over the edge" thing...40 watts is loud, but low enough to allow you to get to that place...
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https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Tim Harr · From: Dunlap, Illinois

The Kemper Profiler Amp is not a “modeler”. The technology is completely different that typical modelers (Fractal, Helixm Tonex, etc). Just clarifying for anyone that wasn’t sure. When talking tech, details matter. Wink

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Tim Harr

Mullen G2 D-10 (9p/5k)
Retired, US Army Band (Steel/Dobro/Guitar)
Kemper Profiler / LW 89

Chris Harwood · From: Kentucky, USA

The only thing missing is a speaker cab on stage if you have a silent stage and go thru the PA. The modelers typically replace a mic'd sound...not the sensation of a D130 roaring thru your trousers.
Latency in a Helix or similar is less than if you were 6ft away from your amp speakers. I squint at people that can hear a 3-4ms delay. 10+... yes

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

The Kemper's latest free upgrade has a couple of new very cool features. One is the ability to connect to a DAW directly with usb using the profiler as the interface. The other new feature is called "Liquid Modeling". The profile can now be used with an amp specific model of gain and other parameters. As I understand when you make tone or gain adjustments on the Kemper the profile will use them exactly like the amp that's profiled. Can't say as I understand it all at this point but I'll be digging into it for sure.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Boss GT10 for about 15 years, Katana 100 for the past 2-3. Both into powered cabs. The models sound better than my real Mesa Boogie MkIIc and Twin Silverface. Lower cost, easy transport, and no maintenance.😎

Some of the Katana “Sneaky Amps” models feature what Kemper is calling “liquid modeling”. But in the Katana system, those models were user-designed, so they are not officially designated in the manual. You kinda have to know or study the amp’s real-life gain and EQ structure in oder to work with it competently.

I’m going to be experimenting with Tonex stuff this winter.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

meh.. all one needs to do is look at the backlines of the pros... Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, but be its rock/country/pop/blues/swing/whatever, the top musicians are not using modeling technology to any great extent... Most are using old school analog tecnology, and the majority are using REAL old vacuum tube tech from 60/70 years ago... The ones that use newer tube amps are using newer amp designs that are currently produced limited availability copies of 70 year old technology... "modeling amps?.... indeed.....
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

I recently read that Pat Metheny played The Ryman Auditorium using both a Kemper and a Tonex. When it comes to pickin and tone he's no slouch you know.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Well...IMHO, serious touring musicians have to be very conscious of having a 100% reliable rig...and tubes, for all their beauty, just ain't that. Especially when the rig gets bounced onto a truck and driven over rough roads repeatedly...so the modeling stuff is a gift to them. It's about the money...
It is like the folks with Dumble amps, who carry a Zendrive pedal with them to gigs that they can't (or won't) take their Dumble to...(yes, I read about some doing that). Much of the tone, zero of the risk and worry...
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https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

There are lots of pros using modelers, from pretty much every genre. This shows that the advantages of modelers are attractive enough that even some of the people with their own guitar techs, roadies, access to pro recording studios, and all the money they need to buy tube amps are still choosing modeling as a solution.

And for us non-pros, who do not have techs to upkeep our tube amps, roadies to carry them, and engineers to mic and record them in a pro studio, modelers start looking even better. I have recorded more music in the last 3 years than in the previous 15 years, just because it's so easy to get good recorded tones in a track, by myself, in my little apartment, at 3 am if I'm so inclined.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Bingo, Justin.

The debate is long over for me. I can’t seem to part with my old tubesters, but it’s been years since they’ve been on a gig. The only question I have for the technology is how far is it going to go. Like, how much farther do we need it to go?

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Somebody had to do it. LOL

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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

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