| Author |
Topic: “TONE” That Is The Question |
Larry Ball
From:
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 8:40 am |
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Has Country Music lost its true “Tone” to “Overdrive Pedals and Pedal Boards in general. It appears to me that Younger musicians care little about tone and more about exotic pedals boards. The older generation “like myself” are true “Tone Freaks” as we grew up with tube amps and clean sounding guitars. As we continuously talk about everything that effects our tone from construction of the cabinet to pickups, strings, picks, bar, amps, hands, feet, pedals.etc, etc. This list is forever being discussed on the forum. I know a lot of players will say that Country Music as evolved and yes I agree it has but I think “Tone” was lost in the process.
My Two Cents.
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Mullen SD10, Sho~Bud SD10 LDG, Show-Pro SD10 LDG, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100 MK11, Telonic's F100 Multi-Taper Super Pro V/P, Wayne Brown “Custom Designed Amp” |
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john buffington
From:
Owasso OK - USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 8:54 am
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| I agree - for what it is worth, what little we are getting to hear today all sounds the same. Steel players today for the most part have lost their identity, whereas once before when you heard Loretta you knew it was Hal Rugg, or Connie Smith you knew it was Weldon. When ET came on the radio it Buddy Charleton, Ray Price of course "The Big E" and so forth. I know I'm old school but listening to Jimmy Day all he used was volume pedal and amp you knew immediately there were no "effects". He once said pointing to his heart "if it ain't in here, you ain't going to get it out of a box". I'm with him. Let's get our identity back! IMO. Keep the flames low please. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 8:56 am
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I agree totally with your statement, but some of the older guitarists that I know have embraced pedal board technology and have used it to make their guitars sound amazing. Our lead player is such a person. He has a good number of pedals but the way he uses them there is no doubt that you are listening to a Fender Strat or Telecaster through a Fender amp.
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Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 8:59 am
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I agree with you as well John. But the tonal differences among the steel players was not as diverse as the tonal differences of the younger guitar players today. What was totally recognizable among our heroes was the style of play and their interpretation of what should work in a song.
As far as tone was concerned I think Lloyd has the most definable tone of that group.
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Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 9:16 am
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| I could pick out Curly Chalker in a second. Lloyd was also immediately known. I chase tone myself trying to imitate my heroes. The big things on YouTube is Distortion and overdrive pedals and sounds. I get sick of hearing the on the edge of breakup on guitars. Hundreds if not thousands of guitarists with that same tone that copys a bad speaker. I just don't get it. I have bought a number of amp simulation pedals and returned them because the quote clean blackface tone is drowning in reverb and distortions. After you dial that out the pedals are lifeless. My own experiences. |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 10:00 am
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Hi folks,
I too, prefer the older style of country music. But, I guess that's the word: "style". I can't add much to what has already been said, but to use Larry Ball's quote: the "younger" generation of musicians.
When we were younger, sometimes our parents would ask "How can you listen to that noise?", referring to our choice of music, something they weren't accustomed to.
Now, we are almost "asking" the same question, because of not being accustomed to the "new" sound. I am not supporting the "new" sound, but rather, thinking it is just part of a cycle.
Music develops, and right now, there are folk styles of music: rock, even heavy metal music, where they are using (Gasp!) acoustic instruments. I feel that, one day, in this mayhem of distorted music, someone will want to try something totally new: No distortion! Clean sound! That's when the cycle style of "tone" would have come full circle.....who knows.....
That's my guestimate....it might happen.......Pat |
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Justin Shaw
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 11:43 am
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I'm 43, and I too grew up on plugging straight into a good tube amp. An American Stratocaster into a Vibrochamp, things like that. I find that every pedal that's ever put in the chain effects the tone, and for this reason I often play pedal steel without a volume pedal, although I know that's not the norm. I recently ordered a nice tube preamp from Brad Sarno, to use with a tube power amp and a real spring reverb unit. Perfectly, ultra tube clean. I also have a 150W steel string singer tube amp clone on order. And I like a wood guitar and a single coil at least as much as anyone else.
I can tell you that the reason I did not come to pedal steel earlier in life is that I do not like the traditional tone of it. I feel nothing when I listen to most traditional country music which includes steel playing, although I recognize the skill of the players. I mean no disrespect. I cannot change what I like or dislike. I love some more modern playing, like Buddy Emmons' version of Shenandoah, and this version of What a Wonderful World https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSfRgIbRD6w. These renditions helped me realize that pedal steel did not need to be a thin, highly chromatic sound. Also, I have always loved and continue to love bluegrass. Alison Kraus and Union Station changed my life, and when they played live with Jerry Douglas I had to rethink everything.
I came to pedal steel because of the capabilities of the instrument. Independent movement of voices, with vibrato, on an instrument to which my existing my guitar abilities and knowledge apply? Perfect. Once I started playing it myself I realized that it didn't have to sound the way I heard it sound in so many recordings. I started playing what I wanted to hear on it. As a result I have a very strong individual style. I do not sound like anyone else, and I do not play like anyone else. I'm not for everybody and I'm fine with that. I play for The Lord anyway.
I generally agree that musicianship has been severely reduced in my and younger generations. I'm the only person in my friend group that consistently plays instruments and tries to improve. I played acoustic guitar for about 10 years before playing electric. I had to learn good technique and how to play with rhythm and dynamics to get the most out of the instrument. I find that most people who play electric guitar typically started on electric and have very poor skills as a result. They do try to solve most of their issues by buying gear or plugging in a new pedal. This is partially why the market is overwhelmed by overdrives and various pedals which basically replace the sound of the guitar with something else. It's because people are bad at making the guitar sound good in the first place. I absolutely agree with Jimmy Day's statement that "if it ain't in here, you ain't going to get it out of a box."
However, it's also true that if you do have it in yourself, in your hands, in your technique, a box doesn't automatically destroy what you have either. That's why you can still use a volume pedal, and that's why Paul Franklin has every type of pedal known to man hanging around when he does session work. In fact it's precisely because pedal steel playing typically requires a volume pedal that I started looking at other types of pedals. If I'm already going to ruin that "plugged straight in" feeling, what else should I try? That said I still own only one pedal that isn't a volume pedal, and I'm thinking of selling it before I even open the box haha. I can tell you that I've seen dozens of video reviews about pedals of various kinds, and almost none of the presenters are good players by any stretch. I think that often when people get into pedals they stop improving at the instrument. However, as I said, pedals are by no means a guarantee that they can't play, or that their tone will be bad for what they want to do.
So to answer your question I do think Country Music has lost its tone. Country Music is basically nostalgia driven classic rock with an accent now. There are still good country musicians like Gabe Lee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFDKgwTFpkA, but its very hard to find good musicians now. In fact it's not just Country. In every genre, stupid, lurid, and loud has won. Tone has been a casualty everywhere. Very occasionally I'll hear a song I like (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQvzX0Z3HE4). I keep an ear out for these, but mostly I just go back to Chopin, Liszt, Bach, and Gospel. I don't need a ton of songs I just need good ones like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74FBgOZTDw |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2023 8:57 am
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| mtulbert wrote: |
| I agree totally with your statement, but some of the older guitarists that I know have embraced pedal board technology and have used it to make their guitars sound amazing. Our lead player is such a person. He has a good number of pedals but the way he uses them there is no doubt that you are listening to a Fender Strat or Telecaster through a Fender amp. |
Not just embraced the technology, but helped to invent it.
Sounds that we heard from our rock guitar heroes were impossible to get at lower volume levels in the clubs, especially the country music clubs. For example, how do I get that sound on Drivin My Life Away without throwing off the whole vibe of the song? First, you do NOT totally throw out your clean tone, because that is the baseline for anything you add to it. There is a process, if you will, to processing tone without losing the guitar’s original character. Quite the opposite. The goal is to find out what it is capable of doing - not just for the player’s sound and technique identity, but for the song.
Guitar effects have been developed and experimented with over decades, starting right out with Les Paul. They have changed the sound of every pop music style, including Country. So before assigning blame to younger generations for changing the sound of the music we love, boomers should take a look in the mirror and realize it was us that brought it on.
Now, what’re we gonna do about it? |
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Bob Shilling
From:
Berkeley, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2023 11:30 am
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| Quote: |
| Country Music is basically nostalgia driven classic rock with an accent now. |
Good description. And there seems to be some standard, required accent that I can't quite place.
There's a lot of good music out there, and some of it is called country. I like all kinds of music - classical, rockabilly, blues, rock, c&w, ... and on-and-on - but what I think of as 'country' pretty much died out by the 90s.
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Bob Shilling, Berkeley, CA--MSA S10, "Classic" |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Bob Shilling
From:
Berkeley, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2023 2:40 pm
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A good example of the generic accent. Wish I hadn't seen that. 
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Bob Shilling, Berkeley, CA--MSA S10, "Classic" |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Thornton Lewis
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2023 3:43 pm
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| There is acoustic music and there is electric music. Once you accept you need a plug to play your decision to ignore every other technology is just another choice. Either you can play it on a mountain top or you can't. The rest is taste and logistics. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Nov 2023 5:44 pm
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I get the irony, for sure.  And I did get a chuckle outta the line "...boys and girls got the same haircut..."
But as to "tone", I see three things at work here. "Tone", "timbre" and EFX. Tone is simply bass, mid, and treble, for the most part. Timbre plays a part in the tone equation because emphasized overtones are what gives the instruments a particular sound or character. The reason an Emmons usually doesn't sound like an old 'Bud is the overtone structure. These differences are also why a trumpet, an oboe, a violin, and a saxophone sound different when playing the same note...different overtones.
But I think when you get into the EFX category, you're pretty much out of the area of tone. Reverb doesn't change tone, nor does echo. Flanging, phasing, and chorus affect tone, but only in a temporal way, because they're all changing phase relationships, and these changes subdue and then enhance certain frequencies and their overtones. (Electronically speaking, all of these types of effects are wobulated bandpass filters.) I use thes occasionally, but it's important not to overdo them. The only other effect worth mentioning is the overdrive, crunch, fuzz, distortion family. These are very popular with lead players (of whom many would go catatonic if they were forced to do without them), but I don't yet see this class of EFX as being popular with most pedal steelers, though they seem popular with many Sacred Steelers.
I see "tone" more as an issue today because most everyone wants to sound the same. There's this generic, homogenized, fullish, round-sounding mindset that's pretty much permeated most of the pedal steel we hear. No one that I hear these days sounds like Myrick, Drake, Brumley, or Chalker. Their distinctive tones have pretty much vanished, and that's a shame considering all the great music that featured those different sounds. But, as the old saying goes, "It is what it is", and what I like or think really doesn't matter much anymore. I sometimes played out-of-the-box, with adventure and verve. But I still remain old-school in many ways, a fossil in today's technological world. But while it lasted, it sure was a thrill to sit 6 feet from all the departed greats, and see and hear what they could do without a bunch of gizmos.
Que sera, sera. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 Nov 2023 4:54 am
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Justin wrote:
"I can tell you that the reason I did not come to pedal steel earlier in life is that I do not like the traditional tone of it. I feel nothing when I listen to most traditional country music which includes steel playing, although I recognize the skill of the players. I mean no disrespect. I cannot change what I like or dislike. I love some more modern playing, like Buddy Emmons' version of Shenandoah, and this version of What a Wonderful World https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSfRgIbRD6w. These renditions helped me realize that pedal steel did not need to be a thin, highly chromatic sound."
I concur; that's a paragraph I could have written.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 25 Nov 2023 6:41 am
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Of course, Donny is correct that there are different concepts of "TONE" at work here - timbre of the instrument, amplitude and phase control, saturation of the signal, and other effects. But beyond even that, all of these can combine to produce a lot more than than one type of (I assume you mean 'good') "TONE". Everything related to tone is a matter of personal taste, and "De gustibus non disputandum est".
The emphasis of the OP seems to be related to amplification and effects. But once you plug into any electronic device that does is not absolutely linear with no amplitude or phase distortion of any kind at any level, the output is "distorted". There are no guitar or steel amplifiers with that property. So the question becomes, "What kind of distortion do you like?".
When I first started playing electric guitar in the 1960s, I had no guitar amp initially. So made an adapter to plug into the RCA plug Aux In of my dad's Capehart hi-fi. I think that's about as close to an 'undistorted' amp sound one can get. It sounded terrible - thin, reedy, not unlike out of a sine wave generator. Guitar amps are also "tone generators", not just amplifiers.
So to me, it's about whether or not I like the particular brand of distortion the electronic devices produce. There are so many different types that it is impossible for me to say categorically that I like or dislike any, carte blanche. Lots of them are useful, depending on the situation. I can see a use for anything from a Fender Twin/Super/Deluxe/Princeon Reverb to a Peavey Session 400 or a Quilter Tone Block, to a tweed Fender/Gibson/whatever, to a full-on cranked Marshall stack (there are many different types) and lots more. For guitar or steel. It's about the context and how they're used. Do they fit the music being played and sound good? If so, I'm in.
Now - if you're talking about the stylistic changes in what is now called "Country Music" - well, that's a lot deeper than changes in guitar tone. But I think it is fallacy to argue that use of a pedalboard necessarily kills tone. Lots of useful pedals these days. If they sound bad, I think that is more generally about operator error, not necessarily anything about the pedal(s). But then one must still always refer back to "De gustibus non disputandum est".
In other words - in used car salesman's parlance - in a robust economy, there's an ass for every seat, and a seat for every ass. Nothing is gonna change that except to crash the economy to the point where that the supply of seats can't support that anymore. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 Nov 2023 7:28 am
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Of course, it's all a compromise the moment we choose to amplify an instrument.
I'm currently getting the 'best steel sound' I've ever had. That may not be strictly true but it's the most pleasing to my ear. Basically, a TT12 linked to a Roland 80XL (the latter is purely for the on-board FX - a touch of delay - and lends a stereo ambience in my practice room).
I recently bought yet another DD-3 (I have had a few over the years) here on the Forum so I could 'play' with delay-settings (Echoplex effect). Suddenly, the richness was lost. Either the circuit-board in the DD-3 or the extra cords (??) sucked the warmth from my sound.
Ask any MD who's employed me. I will go to any lengths to avoid such things unless, of course, the chart specifically demands it. Refusing to cooperate would constitute a novel way of handing in your notice! 
I run my Martins through the same rig. I need to roll off a little bass but, otherwise, the sound is spectacular. I once researched James Taylor's amp-chain for his stage-sound. The gadgetry would have set me back many thousands of dollars and what I'm getting now is close enough. The difference isn't that great.
I'm just saying that there's a price to be paid for every unit we put in the line, at least in my experience.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dave Stagner
From:
Minnesota, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2023 1:53 pm
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Whether steel playing today sounds generic or not depends on what modern playing you’re listening to. If it’s just contemporary Nashville bro-country, then yes, it’s all going to sound alike! It’s a product more than music. And what happens in the recording studio is more production than raw tone. But step outside the constraints of the Top 40, and we’re in a musical golden age. Listen to Rich Hinman’s instrumental work with Adam Levy, for example. Or one of my favorite contemporary players, Kurt Johnson with Mikaela Davis and Southern Star, a band that really does what I want jam bands to do - take risks onstage. (He also uses pedals, but his core tone is pure Emmons into tubes.)
I don’t think the problem is pedals. I think the problem is Nashville money. Get away from Nashville money, and you’ll find all sorts of great players, both traditional and modern.
_________________
I don’t believe in pixie dust, but I believe in magic.
1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2023 2:59 pm
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| Quote: |
| But step outside the constraints of the Top 40, and we’re in a musical golden age. |
Same as it ever was, with a caveat.
The population and technology explosions of the last 100 years was bound to produce equally larger amounts of great and terrible music, and great and mediocre players playing it.
If this is a comparison of “mainstream now versus mainstream then”, I don’t think there’s any denying that the sound of pop (including country) music has changed drastically, largely due to the demand for overdriven guitar “tones”, synthesizers, and monster drum tracking. |
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Dave Stagner
From:
Minnesota, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2023 8:38 pm
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Yeah, lookahead brickwall limiters, Autotune, and Beat Detective have not done contemporary country music any favors. The loudening of music has hurt almost every genre. Although on the bright side, vinyl has made a big comeback, and music has to be remastered for it - modern digital masters would just knock the needle out of the groove. So I tend to buy music I like on vinyl and listen that way. On the other hand, if Billy Sherill had been armed with those tools in 1972, he’d have abused them just like modern producers do. You don’t get rich in the music industry by targeting the subtlety and good taste of pop music fans.
Bad guitar tones (and bad drums, and bad fiddles, and of course bad pedal steel) are all the inevitable result of recordings with a 6db working dynamic range. Subtle tonal colors cannot be heard. It’s like when you’re on a too-loud stage and you can’t hear anything clearly and making it louder just makes it worse. It’s not about pedals, and it’s not the musicians, who’d certainly prefer to have great tones. It’s the demands of commercial radio-friendly music. So don’t listen to music meant to be played on the radio! Musicians are just as good as they ever were, and plenty of great tones and great songs are being released today. They’re just not on the radio, because the loudness war ruined radio and ruins any music that chooses to fight in that war.
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I don’t believe in pixie dust, but I believe in magic.
1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders |
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Dan Kelly
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 26 Nov 2023 3:43 am
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Dave, to your point: The solo starts at 3:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWNRsNiu9Vs
Great use of the instrument, IMHO
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blah, blah, blah.
Hey You Kids! Get Off My Lawn!
blah, blah, blah. |
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Dave Stagner
From:
Minnesota, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2023 6:42 am
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Yep. That track is a good rebuttal to the “kids these days make bad sounding music” argument. The whole band sounds fantastic, soulful and toneful and carefully listening to each other. And that steel solo is gorgeous, imaginative while staying within the traditional tone. I saw them live back in August, and the whole show was like that.
_________________
I don’t believe in pixie dust, but I believe in magic.
1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders |
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Ken Morgan
From:
Midland, Texas, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2023 7:30 am
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I believe the typical music buyers aren't generally the crowds who cling to tradition. If they were, the music world would be MUCH different. There is the commerce side to consider whether I like it or not
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67 Shobud Blue Darling III, scads of pedals and such, more 6 strings than I got room for
Ken Morgan
Midland, TX |
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 26 Nov 2023 2:51 pm
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that great tone of a steel plugged straight into an amp that we all love and remember is really the tone of a steel plugged straight into an amp, recorded with an extremely expensive microphone, then fed through a giant tube driven compression device (tape or compressor) and treated with a plate reverb so big they need an extra room for it (kind of like this sentence).
you can get all those things in pedal format now, just saying. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Nov 2023 6:11 pm
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| Dave Campbell wrote: |
that great tone of a steel plugged straight into an amp that we all love and remember is really the tone of a steel plugged straight into an amp, recorded with an extremely expensive microphone, then fed through a giant tube driven compression device (tape or compressor) and treated with a plate reverb so big they need an extra room for it (kind of like this sentence).
you can get all those things in pedal format now, just saying. |
Yeah, I think the studio processing of yesteryear is an important point. Player-grade technology has made huge strides to get preamps, compressors, reverbs, and delays that approach those great tube consoles, compressors, delay lines, and plate reverbs. These days, it's possible to get pretty close to studio-grade sound onstage. And making guitars and amps that rival the greats of the 'golden years' is now a fairly mainstream industry. As I stated earlier, I think a lot of the bad sounds coming out of processing are either user error or intentional misuse.
I guess I'm also gonna push back on the oft-floated notion that everything mainstream is junk. There's still good music out there, even in the mainstream. And TONS of it out of the mainstream. I cannot keep up with the amount of good music being made - I hear new stuff daily. And as far as everything being so good back when - well, not so much. I grew up in the 50s-70s, and believe me, there was a lot of pabulum back then too. By the time I hit my teens, I retreated to "underground" radio, where I heard everything from folk to rock to blues to jazz to bluegrass to psychedelic to - gasp, even in Boston - actual country music like Haggard, Cash, and Jones. What I was hearing on AM radio back then was a lot of bubblegum music. |
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