1960s Fender Pickup Specs.

Jeff Rady · From: Colorado, USA

I really like the sound/tone of the old Fender 400s, but I don’t like having an 8 string and a guitar that’s kind of ancient and temperamental. Is there a way to get that sound out of a newer guitar with a pickup that has similar specs as the old 8 string Fenders? I know Fender used single coils in the Fender 400’s, but what else about them made them sound so cool, heavy wound, light wound? Anyone know the exact specs of the early 60’s model pups?

Let me know your thoughts!

Thanks,
JR
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Williams Guitar Purveyor, Owner of jeffsguitarandsteel.com

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The Fender pedal steel pickups were low-wound (8k) single-coil pickups with Alnico magnets. But most of the sound of those old Fenders came from their very thick and heavy bodies, and the changer and nut design. (If you put a modern pickup on an old Fender, it still sounds like an old Fender.)

Fender pedal steels were made with lumber, like a two-by-four, not thin boards. You can't get that exact sound with a standard pedal steel since their bodies are far lighter, and the changers are made differently. (Those old guitars were also usually played through tube amps.)

In short, i's everything, together; not just the pickups.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Donny is correct for the most part, you can't duplicate the cable Fender sound 100%, as there are too many differences from modern designs, but I can tell you this for certain-You can get pretty close if you do this-

1- have a pickup wound with Alnico magnets by a good winder/designer/builder pickup guru guy..

2- do NOT wind it to modern specs.. I used to have mine wound by Jerry Wallace with a coil tap.. one at 8 K, the other at around 11 K..

3- use a Fender all tube amp.. a vintage one from the 60's
if you can, makes a really big difference,,

4- Do NOT put a ton of digital/high tech crap in the signal chain.. maybe an an analog delay or something, but don't go too crazy..

listen to the way those guys PLAYED those old cable Fenders, different touch from the way many guys play these days.. Believe me, you can get close.. I did for years, and for the simple reason being the fenders were too heavy and to much of butt pain to gig with... Many years ago, I went to a steel jam and set my little 5&4 Carter S10 up with a Fender amp, and started noodling.. I had the coil tap in the 8K position... One old time steel player right in front of me had a surprised look on his face, turned to his buddy and proclaimed pretty loudly and with some surprise in his voice
"That guitar sounds exactly like my old Fender 400".. Made my day, as that was what I was aiming for.. of course it wasn't "exact", but with the right pickups, a fender tube amp, and the right "touch" you can get pretty close.. Its not that hard.. If you are really serious about getting the "old school" sound I would contact Scott at Steeltronics pickups, tell him what you are after, and have him wind you an 8K-12K pickup that emulates the Fender sound as closely as possible.. You should be very happy with the sound... I certainly was, for many years.. I used the technique on several different brands, and it does work...bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Jeff Rady · From: Colorado, USA

Hi Bob and Don,

Yeah that's the thing about the getting an old one is they are super heavy and cumbersone and would need probably a lot of work so that the pedal action wasn't so mushy. Also, I like Sneaky Pete, but if I was in an E9 tuning on a fender 400/ 8 string guitar, I could barely do any of his licks, like unisons on string 1 and 3 or 5 and 2, string 7 raises, etc, because of the limitation of E9 tuning on an 8 string guitar. And, I don't really want to change all my muscle memory and understanding of the neck in order to learn his copedent.

Anyway, that's probably more info than your looking for, but for those who might be, those are the conclusions I'm coming to. I think I'll get closer to that tone with a light wound single coil. I really appreciate both of your responses.
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Williams Guitar Purveyor, Owner of jeffsguitarandsteel.com

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I have never really obtained the exact Fender sound I wanted, but was close enough that I did finally sell off my Fender steels in favor of other brands.. You also must remember, the cable pull system is VERY different than rods as far as feel, stretch, pull length. that sort of thing, and those things will have a bearing on the way the steel responds in both feel and tone.. Also Pete's sound was unique.. Most Fender steels did NOT sound like his.. perhaps listen to Red Rhodes on Bony Fingers, or some of Al Perkins early work with the Burritos Brothers, or on the Steve Stills Manasses album.. They are Fender guitars also, but sound nothing like Pete.. a Lot of Pete's tone was in his hands, mostly in his head, and in the way he used effects, as opposed to the brand label on the guitar... Some of what you seek will be in the pickup changes yes, but a lot will be in what you yourself put into the guitar and the way you play it... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

2 more cents here…Pete’s B6 was almost like a Baritone guitar version of E9. Maybe a B9 tuning with heavier strings and E9 type changes could get you something like what you seek. You would just have to relearn left hand positions but not muscle memory for feet and knees. I have a GFI D10 with the back neck in a tuning like that and a 7.5 ohm Fender type pickup by Jerry Sentell. I am trying it out since I’m not a heavy duty C6 player. I have low notes and licks not available on my front neck and can still do old style Western Swing and Hank.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

Jeff, I second everything Bob has said on this.
Talk to Steeltronics and get a custom pickup made for your Williams, swap it in, play around with it and see what you think.

Use an all tube amp.

I'm not chasing that fender sound but do have a more "classic" tone using Steeltronics CE-10s in my Williams with a Milkman Creamer. Probably lower wind and vintage fender amp would get you even closer. I do have a second guitar with 705 reissues that mainly is for recording versatility.

Jeff Rady · From: Colorado, USA

Hi John and K,

I think those are both good ideas, I might do both and compare the sound, maybe I'll offload the Fender if it seems too nuts but at least give it a try.

John, are you the one who sold me the Milkman 100? It's been working great if so! Hope you're doing good!

JR
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Williams Guitar Purveyor, Owner of jeffsguitarandsteel.com

John Poston · From: Albuquerque, NM, USA

Jeff, it is me, glad it's going well.

I have a 400 and it's pretty fun, but it definitely has its limits mechanically. It's nice how quickly you can make changes on it, I like the wide string spacing and don't mind the pedal feel. Great tone. I put a basic C6 on mine, maybe you'd wanna put the Mooney setup on there, even with roller bridge you might need to tune down to D though.

I think you'll get pretty close with the right pickup and amp and will appreciate having all the usual changes of a modern guitar though.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Check the gauge of the copper wire. It makes all the difference. The sound /tone comes from the relationship between 3 things. Winding to a specific resistance means nothing without the other factors. The pickup in my Clinesmith wound to 5k has way more low end than a Lawrence wound to 36k.
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Bob

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

10 or 15 years ago I cobbled up a z-coil 5+5
Style for my old Excel. It was a unique size and mounting, so it was either try to make my own or spend lots of money.
I don't remember the inductance, but I used alnico slugs from Stewmac and wound each coil with 6000 turns of #38 wire. (It barely fit but it's way easier to work with, plus I got a big roll cheap.)
I figured out the number of turns by measuring wire gauge and resistance from a Fender 400 pickup.
Using stainless strings, the brightness seemed to me pretty close to the Fender. At least it was a big improvement in tone from the original overwound 22k ohm single coil (popular in the 70s I guess). The hum cancelling part worked great.
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Excel D10 8&4, Supro 8, Regal resonator, Peavey Powerslide, homemade lap 12(a work in progress)

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

Here's some info from " Fender : The Inside Story " , by Forrest White .
Pedal 400/1000 , #42 S.T. coated copper magnet wire , 1900 turns , 8800 to 9800 ohms resistance.
The 800/2000 steels had the same specs except the coil resistance was larger , 11000 to 12000 ohms . The coil was longer to cover ten strings .

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