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Topic: E13 instructional resources? |
Steven Wilson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2023 5:28 pm |
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I recently purchased a Stringmaster D8. One of the necks is tuned to E13 and I am looking for instructional videos. I have been on John Ely's website and didn't see much except that he uses a different string set and tuning that what the guitar came with (Scotty's). The low string is .036 and tuned to B, while John's tuning is:
E13th Tuning
Pitch Gauge Cents 440 Scale
E .014 +4.0 441
C# .017 -6.0 438.5
B .018 +4.0 441
G# .024w -6.0 438.5
F# .026w +4.0 441
D .034w +4.0 441
G# .046w -6.0 438.5
E .056w +4.0 441
Any advice on the tuning and online resources for instruction? The other neck is A6 and I can navigate around that... |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2023 10:07 pm
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I call that tuning Leon E13... Mr McAuliffe's tuning on a lot of the stuff he did. The Boggs E13 has the 5 in the lower course and no 5 in the upper... I prefer the Leon for the way the dyads lie, and for the 'home' feeling on the upper course (more 6-like).
Most folks use it as a strum tuning only... but if you spend some time in it you can work around the idiosyncracies. I tuned several guitars (including my PBS8 dobro!) to Leon and just 'lived' in it for a while... years, in fact... and it's got a lot going for it. Here's a short video I did about some licks and tricks in Leon, hope this helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r4bpr4mhxw
I see you've given the 'sweetening' offsets... I just tune the thirds down 8 cents and squint real hard. If you get away from just strumming it it helps to have most strings in standard pitch, say when you're playing in IV position as I do in the video.
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 15 Nov 2023 1:29 am
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I found Stephen's video most helpful in getting started with E13. I am slowly working it up with arrangements and transcriptions. There are many rich chord voicings.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in discussions of this tuning is that it is a 'pentatonic machine', which makes it very useful, especially for blues. The top 5 strings are a complete major pentatonic scale, which, when moved up a minor third, constitutes a minor pentatonic. Here are four useful positions.
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 15 Nov 2023 2:40 am
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Here are a couple of picking exercises using major pentatonics that I just found in my files. Fairly topical given Paulo's current post.
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 15 Nov 2023 5:57 am
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I personally encourage anyone to at least try having a low B as string 7 instead of the low E in that tuning (the so-called Vance terry E13th EC#BG#F#DBG#).
That low root is sweet, and you need it for some tunes, but for arranging old tunes and chordal playing I prefer having that low fifth. It also gives more minor chord and arpeggio options.
If I had 9 strings I'd love a low E... with 10, an even lower B below that would be awesome.
Here is a great (almost) seasonally appropriate Leon's E13th arrangement by Mr. Rich Sullivan that demonstrates how a steel guitarist must learn to think horizontally:
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Landon Jarrel
From:
Space
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Posted 15 Nov 2023 1:10 pm
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What has helped me tremendously in past and present when navigating around different tunings, including 13ths, is to take the knowledge from one tuning and finding it on the other. Ex: favorite inversions, chords, scales, licks, songs etc. I think this not only helps learn the other tuning, but also reinforces what you already know on the 6th tuning.
I already understood the basics of 6th tunings when I started on a 13th, and just went between necks to replicate these patterns on both necks. This made the most sense to me. I'd ask myself the question: "how different does this scale look on the 13th" and go from there. Or, "Where do I get this chord, with and without slants, on the 13th tuning as compared to the 6th tuning?" |
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Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2023 2:21 pm
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Here's a couple excellent E13 tabs Guy posted a while back.
And Leon McAuliffe on Bob Wills "Home In San Antone"
https://youtu.be/x2qMZd1VIMM?si=PQisSNnC-eO9r0yL
Last edited by Jim Fogarty on 17 Nov 2023 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 15 Nov 2023 2:30 pm
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In reality, there isn't a specific course of a specific tuning when it comes to steel guitar. Especially non pedal.
Handling the bar, intonation, licks, scales, chords are common lingua for any steel guitar tuning.
So specific lessons for specific Lap Steel tunings is kind of irrelevant. C6 licks work on E13, you just need to map the chords to your specific tuning.
Any new tuning I try (every new instrument I try) , I create a spread sheet to show me the available chords, scales, etc. Then I apply what I know to the new tuning.
In the end, western music theory doesn't change from tuning to tuning. It is all the same. the lick you learn in some other tuning can be applied to any tuning with the right amount of practice, or adapted with the right amount of thinking. |
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Tal Herbsman
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2023 4:35 pm
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| The Jerry Byrd big book has an E13 section. I skipped that one but it's there. It's really an incredible resource. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2023 6:53 am
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I asked for help here a while back and mostly it is a tough road. I think many people would be interested in some more instructional material on this one. Of all the BIG steel guitar tunings E13 is my favorite. I have played around with a couple versions, but they are all challenging. I think it is better as a 9 or 10 string tuning. Even better yet a couple pedals just add some basic changes like the old timers. Creating exercises like Guy has shown are perhaps the most helpful thing for me with any tuning. I find TAB is much more useful when I can watch a video of someone playing it.
Having A6 on the other neck is very logical. My favorite non pedal recordings of all time are of Vance Terry with Billy Jack Wills. If you don't have this here is a good listen
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=346746&sid=4cef3b45a9f3a8ac02fdf4d4b7e615fc
A little rough, but some incredible music from a the final glory days of steel guitar. It seems most people agree he uses the tuning listed above. Vance's playing is just amazing and I am assuming he played by ear. Let us know about your progress! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 16 Nov 2023 9:52 am
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There are only a few players I know of who know the tuning well enough to ever create instructional material for this tuning, and they are not likely to do so. When someone really knows a tuning, they know all these little secrets that mostly get overlooked by people. It’s just about spending as much time with that one tuning and, like Bill said above, making things—anything—work.
The good news is there are a lot of apps and software that make it really easy to see certain scales and how they lay out on the neck. It is really worthy of study. I can highly recommend the Guitar Toolkit app for anyone with an ipad or iphone. There are others as well, and also nothing beats buying yourself a blank book of neck diagrams and plotting it all out. I do it every single day. I have quite a few of these books: 8 string fretboard diagram book https://amzn.to/3SIgBKE
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2023 10:39 am
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Mike...
Is there a ten-string version of this book?
I suppose one could draw/add a couple extra strings, but it would be easier if a ten-string book is available. |
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Steven Wilson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2023 2:47 pm
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| Thanks to all for this information; I appreciate you! I will take the time to just live in E13 for a while and see how it goes. |
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Kyle Jester
From:
Martinez, California
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Posted 17 Nov 2023 10:52 am
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I just got done building this website this morning for learning NPS and it has 10 different E13 tunings as well as custom make-your-own tuning,
and you can highlight whatever you like, there's all kinds of options and I plan to leave it forever FREE so people like us can learn this
thing without a ton of ads all up in our grill 
Hope it's useful, suggestions welcome: SlantFinder.Pro
I hadn't planned on making a full website, but spreadsheets evolved and then last night I found that domain name for $3 so there it is.
Oh yah, it also has static URLs so you can share or bookmark your tuning/key/highlighting options easily.
For instance, this link is to A6 tuning (F♯AC♯EF♯AC♯E) with Dim7 degrees highlighted in the key of D.
Cheers, k
Last edited by Kyle Jester on 27 Nov 2023 11:09 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Stephen Baker
From:
Lancashire, UK
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Posted 17 Nov 2023 4:48 pm
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| Jim, or Guy. I found the Billy Jack Wills/Vance Terry version of "Cadillac In Model A", but what is the other transcription, in F, you posted from? |
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Steven Wilson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2023 5:09 pm
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| Thanks, Kyle. That is awesome. I also found a forum thread from April 2017 titled "E13 Variations" that answers my original question. The Scotty's strings from the Forum store (B, D, E, G#, B, C#, E G# low to high) are identified as a Don Helms tuning, while John Ely's website (tuning shown in my first post) is from Leon McAuliffe which I think someone else pointed out. Your website identifies that one a E13/C#m7. If anyone has a recommendation on which one is easier to navigate, that would be great. I am leaning toward sticking with the Scotty's (Helms) tuning which has the 1,3,5,6 adjacent on strings 6/5/4/3; more akin to the A6/C6 and my dobro roots. |
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Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2023 6:28 pm
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| Stephen Baker wrote: |
| Jim, or Guy. I found the Billy Jack Wills/Vance Terry version of "Cadillac In Model A", but what is the other transcription, in F, you posted from? |
ooops....it was in the file name, but didn't realize it wasn't on the tab. It's Leon McAuliffe on Bob Wills "Home In San Antone"
https://youtu.be/x2qMZd1VIMM?si=PQisSNnC-eO9r0yL |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 17 Nov 2023 7:03 pm
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| Steven Wilson wrote: |
| The Scotty's strings from the Forum store (B, D, E, G#, B, C#, E G# low to high) are identified as a Don Helms tuning, while John Ely's website (tuning shown in my first post) is from Leon McAuliffe which I think someone else pointed out. If anyone has a recommendation on which one is easier to navigate, that would be great. I am leaning toward sticking with the Scotty's (Helms) tuning which has the 1,3,5,6 adjacent on strings 6/5/4/3; more akin to the A6/C6 and my dobro roots. |
You can try tuning the string 6 E to F# to get a feel for the sound and see how much it gets it the way for you.
You could also try tuning down the B to G# at the same time just to experiment without having to change the strings.
Retune those two strings, and try not to hit the high G# to figure out how much you’ll miss it. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2023 6:32 am
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| Steven Wilson wrote: |
| If anyone has a recommendation on which one is easier to navigate, that would be great. I am leaning toward sticking with the Scotty's (Helms) tuning which has the 1,3,5,6 adjacent on strings 6/5/4/3; more akin to the A6/C6 and my dobro roots. |
I don't consider the Don Helms E13 to be a true 13th tuning. It is more like a 6th tuning with a b7th in the bass. You need the b7th, the 9th and the 6th for the dark half diminished and 9th chords in straight bar. With 8 strings it also means you have to lose a root as in the McAuliffe tuning , tune the E up to F#. Or with the Boggs you are losing the high 5th. The Boggs is more like the old Hawaiian C#m (E6). I find these tunings very challenging for a variety of reasons! I have really started to like the C# minor which I have on my 7 string I converted from a 12 string acoustic.
This is what I do, to experiment and find out what you like you can tweak A6, (or C6 with a high G) for that matter in the low register F#-A-C#-E-F#-A-C#-E becomes G-B-C#-E-F#-A-C#-E. This way you have your avoid notes on the bottom and you still have a familiar major triad on top, as well as a full 6 string A6. This is why A6 is my favorite non pedal tuning. C13 would be Bb-D-E-G-A-C-E-G but that's too shrill for me. You can also raise the A to Bb instead of B in the A6 version for an even darker A13b9. With a full dim 7th chord on the bottom.
Here is a link to the video of Rich playing The Christmas Song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL6--tPNS_4 This is making me want to string up Leons E13! |
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Steven Wilson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 4 Dec 2023 11:47 am
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Just one more thing to add to this post - I discovered a Mel Bay ebook buried on my computer that I had forgotten about; I think I may have bought it through the SGF. The title is "Your Cheatin' Heart Steel Guitar Songbook (Don Helms)" with a 2010 date on it. It includes 10 or so "Hank" songs with instructional recordings and rhythm tracks. Up front it has this description of Don Helm's E13 tuning:
String gage
1. G# 010P
2. E 014P
3. C# 017P
4. B 020P
5. G# 024P
6. E 030W
7. C# 034W
8. A 036W
Followed by this important note - "When Don was playing Hank Williams he tuned the 7th string to C# (038W) and the 8th string to A (042W). He called this tuning E6th. He used this tuning through his entire career." So that is different than the tuning I had with the 7th string tuned to D and the 8th string tuned to B, and the gages are slightly different. In any case, the book is what I would call an instructional resource..... |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 4 Dec 2023 1:45 pm
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| Steven Wilson wrote: |
| (snip) If anyone has a recommendation on which one is easier to navigate, that would be great. I am leaning toward sticking with the Scotty's (Helms) tuning which has the 1,3,5,6 adjacent on strings 6/5/4/3; more akin to the A6/C6 and my dobro roots. |
Most folks with a D8 use a 6 and a 13... the next choices are which 6 and which 13. I use a C6 hi G (5) and Leon E13... the pattern you talk about is available on the 6 neck as well as the top four of Leon (3,5,6,1), sorta. Rose, for instance, uses an A6 hi 5 and the Leon.
Not sure which Helms' 13 you're referring to... I've attached a fairly authoritative picture from SGF that gives his spelling and gauges. The tuning Scotty shows must be different.
 [/quote]
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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