| Author |
Topic: Some theory for playing in Minor keys |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 29 Sep 2023 6:51 am |
|
For anyone here interested, I found these 2 articles on playing over minor keys (or minor passages, chords etc.) I have really struggled with minor sounds in general on steel guitar. Playing in 6th tunings has been challenging and forced me to seek a better understanding of the relationships between the Major-Minor or to take it further happy-sad, tension- resolution, dissonance-consonance, light- dark, yin and yang etc.... In my opinion the most important concept in music or life.
I find it curious that a 6th chord contains a major and a minor triad and seems to be the most calm static chord, completely open to interpretation. Anyway you get the picture... I am just beginning to understand this principle, but key for me is the importance of the Harmonic scale in relation to the V7 chord. A scale which I have avoided. Not anymore. Also the concept of chord borrowing, which I do without realizing it. One of the perks of being self ear taught.
https://www.campusfive.com/swingguitarblog/2010/1/26/approaching-minor-keys-pt1.html
https://www.jazzadvice.com/lessons/minor-keys-and-harmony-in-jazz/ |
|
|
 |
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 29 Sep 2023 10:37 am
|
|
| Those are great links, Tim. I love playing in minor keys, and C6 or A6 are easy to play single-note solos in minor, but I'll make a video about my favorite tuning for minor chords, B11. It fits right in with what both those articles are talking about. |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 29 Sep 2023 10:57 am
|
|
One of the basic concepts to consider is the fact that a min7 chord does not make a good tonic, so Amin6, AminMaj7 or straight Amin are better choices for a tonic. But in Country music and rock, etc., you often have tunes where the harmony is more of a natural minor sound (Amin G F) with the Harmonic Minor reserved for the V7 chord. But for swing and jazz and blues, it’s a different sound. I think one needs to be able to make these distinctions.
The harmonic and melodic minor scales are artificial scales created to strengthen the tension/resolution to the tonic minor. In natural minor, the V chord is a minor, so there is very little push to the tonic with the absence of a leading tone.
The iim7b5-V7-i in minor is a great sound, very open to cool substitutions but the minor7b5 chord can be difficult to play cool stuff over without reconsidering it. For example, one could look at the iimin7b5 as a iv6: in the key of Gmin, Ami7b5 would be Cm6. From there you have many possibilities.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
|
|
|
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 29 Sep 2023 12:50 pm
|
|
| Also, Mike has some good points. You have to know when to use what stylistically. |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 29 Sep 2023 6:40 pm
|
|
B11th is my favorite tuning for minor keys too, I use:
E C# A F# D# C# A B
I think the B11th tunings that are more obviously derrived from A6th and use the A and C# in the bass (and even low F# instead of low B) are much for versatile for playing standard tunes than, for example:
E C# A F# D# B F# B
You get a bunch more inversions on the former, and the overall strum is different (though less fat).
Even on 6 strings, I think I would reluctantly eschew the bottom B string in favor of a C# for a lot of tunes:
E C# A F# D# C#
Some minor tunes fit better for me on a non-pedal E9th variant (totally unrelated to the pedal steel tuning), which is also great for minor sounds.
Said E9th is got by tuning the high C# string on Vance Terry E13th to D:
E D B G# F# D B G#
(Starting from Leon’s E13th would be great too, would be more like the old F#9th tuning but pitched in E. Tuned up a step for reference: F# E C# A# G# E A# F#)
Al Marcus was retuning between VT E13th and that E9th beginning in 1938 on a Vega D8! The other neck was an E6th variant.
The E9th was really strange for me at first, as having the dominant 7th voiced so high in the tuning is really unusual for steel tunings…
But that also makes it very unique! One little string change makes a huge difference.
The kinds of minor tunes I am talking about that are great for these tunings:
Angel Eyes
Minor Swing (E9th)
Summertime (B11th)
St. James Infirmary (B11th)
Willow Weep for Me (E9th)
You Don’t Know What Love Is
Love Me or Leave Me (E9th, really fun to play, sliding up the octave for the melody)
Crying for the Carolines (E9th, A cool underrated Harry Warren tune)
Alone Together
You’d be So Nice to Come Home To (E9th)
Dark Eyes,
Blues My Naughty Sweetheart
etc… |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 30 Sep 2023 5:22 am
|
|
Great insight everyone and excellent video Ethan. You sure make it look easy  It does really help seeing someone play. I am playing mostly my pedal steel, but I am approaching all the single note stuff from straight A6, C6 or E6. I am trying to think of these as the same tuning, just shifted up or down. My pedal steel is set up more as a tuning changer. It is like having a multi neck steel in a way. For minor tunes I think I will try using a minor 6 type approach instead of A6 or C6.
It is weird how especially in music, some very basic simple concepts can remain hidden. Like the fact that as Mike pointed out minor 7 chords do not make a good tonic. Your ear tells you it's wrong, but you sometimes have to go into the theory of it if you want to know WHY it sounds wrong. May be not so simple. I like the idea of thinking of the harmonic minor and melodic minor as artificial scales to create tension. I suppose this idea can go way deeper. It seems everything is based off the the major and minor scale, which are really just 2 sides to the same coin. Where I really start to get lost is when he describes how borrowing the harmonic minor for the V7 chord affects the upper structures of the chords. Playing jazz is like juggling rubber knives!
I stumbled on these articles cause I am working through some basic harmonized scales and trying become more intentional in my playing. I go back and forth between guitar pedal steel and several lap steels. I have played guitar for over 20 years and I avoided this stuff like the plague. Coming from a grungey rock and folk background I never really learned a lot of this stuff.
Another cool concept that kind of relates to playing over minor stuff is the connection between minor 6 chords, m7b5 and rootless 9th chords. These chords add a sophisticated jazzy sound but seem to take some study to use properly. Here is another cool link that explains this and other similar chords. This can help you get more mileage out of chords you already know. https://www.jazzguitar.be/files/jazz-chord-identities.pdf |
|
|
|
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 30 Sep 2023 6:24 am
|
|
| I'm glad it was helpful, Tim! You brought up a great subject! |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 30 Sep 2023 6:55 am
|
|
Excellent video, Ethan! Very well explained and demo'd.
For anyone who wants to play around with the minor ideas Ethan talked about for B11th. Here's a basic template for a minor key blues most everyone knows. Like everything on steel and guitar, there are multiple ways to play the harmony and melody but this is how I did it.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 30 Sep 2023 8:57 am
|
|
The Thrill Is Gone or any other minor blues is a great way to understand the way things function in minor key progressions.
In using more functional harmony with moving bass lines and voices, which is often confusing to people, you can expand the chords and follow the path that the voices lead to.
If you take the chord progression in Andy's chart:
Bm |Bm | Bm |Bm |
Em |Em |Bm |Bm |
GMa7|F#7 |Bm |Bm |
It is how BB King used a minor blues.
In Jazz, you might hear this basic, almost baroque-sounding progression.
Bm F#7|Bm F#7|Bm F#7|B7 |
Em |C#m7b5 F#7 |Bm F#7|Bm |
C#m7b5|F#7 |Bm |F#7 |
We could keep modifying the above changes to take it into more abstraction, but the principal behind it will always be the Imin-V7.
In bar 5 we are modulating to Emin, which temporarily becomes a tonic, which is why we introduced it with B7--it signals a resolution to the temporary key.
Then in bars 9 and 10, we have a II-V7 in minor back to home key. If you look at Andy's chart, he used Gmaj7, which is made with the diatonic harmony of B minor, also the tritone sub of C# (chord quality doesn’t matter here) but its function there is as a VI chord leading to the F#7, which not diatonic to the key of B minor, but is created from the B harmonic minor scale, because it has a leading tone (A#) that leads back to tonic.
Understanding basic harmony is essential to playing so definitely check out the links above. If you have a good foundation, you start to make sense of why for instance tritone substitutions work so well in minor keys. If you were to Look at the above progression, you could substitute C7 for F#7 as a tritone substitution and even Gm7b5-C7. It doesn't work everywhere, but your ears should tell where it does work. It's best to hear the things for yourself and develop that sense.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 30 Sep 2023 8:09 pm
|
|
Here is a simple and very hip way of navigating a minor ii-V7-i progression.
Key of B minor
C#m7b5 | F#7 | Bmin
The ii in a minor progression is the m7b5 or half-diminished chord.
In the key of B minor, the ii chord is C#m7b5, which contains the notes:
C# E G B. If you look at the upper three notes, it is the E minor triad. In the key of B minor, E minor is the iv.
The V7 is F#7, which is where we create all the tension to resolve back to the tonic. One of the ways to do that is to use the altered scale, which is the melodic minor scale beginning a half-step above the root of the chord, in this case G, so G melodic minor. By using G melodic minor, we now have the tensions b9, #9, b5 and #5. In the key of B minor, G is the 6th tone, or VI.
Finally, the tonic B minor is simply i and we will use a B minor scale--I like melodic minor here too, so B melodic minor.
We can play through this cycle using melodic minor scales built on the 4-6-1. In any key you can simply do the mental math of figuring out which tones they are. In the case above, it would be E melodic min, G melodic min, and B melodic minor. So easy, so cool. You can even try using minor pentatonics, which sound cool, even though they don't completely make sense when you spell them out. But try it, Em, Gm, Bm pentatonics.
This is some really valuable info that was passed on to me by some heavy cats, and I've tried to present it as simply as I can. But this is gold and I hope you agree.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 1 Oct 2023 5:00 am
|
|
| Mike Neer wrote: |
We can play through this cycle using melodic minor scales built on the 4-6-1. In any key you can simply do the mental math of figuring out which tones they are. In the case above, it would be E melodic min, G melodic min, and B melodic minor. So easy, so cool. You can even try using minor pentatonics, which sound cool, even though they don't completely make sense when you spell them out. But try it, Em, Gm, Bm pentatonics.
|
What chord are you using these scales over? The Bm??
As I get deeper into this stuff, I am running into this idea a lot. I find I understand it, but actually using it is a different thing. I watched a video yesterday about how to use minor 6th chords, and he was explaining how to use mixolydian scales over m6 chords by thinking of them as 9th chords. Very unique sound. I feel like to really use this stuff, you have to have all the basic scales completely fluid, and I haven't even begun to do this on steel guitar. I find scales on this instrument to be daunting in the extreme. I will probably try to work out some simple patterns in the home position, but getting beyond that it gets very murky. |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 1 Oct 2023 6:58 am
|
|
| Tim Toberer wrote: |
What chord are you using these scales over? The Bm??
|
The scales change with the chords.
Try the pentatonics first:
C#m7b5 (Eminor pent) | F#7 (G minor pent) | Bm (B minor pent)
With regard to using mixolydian on a min6, why not think of it as dorian? D mixolydian and A dorian are modes of the same scale: G major.
When a min6 functions as a tonic, it needs firmer roots than a mixolydian. Melodic minor is usually my choice there in jazz and swing situations. Your ears may tell you different.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 1 Oct 2023 8:01 am
|
|
| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Tim Toberer wrote: |
What chord are you using these scales over? The Bm??
|
The scales change with the chords.
Try the pentatonics first:
C#m7b5 (Eminor pent) | F#7 (G minor pent) | Bm (B minor pent)
|
Ok I see! Thanks! I will try it on guitar where I actually sort of know my scales  |
|
|
|
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 1 Oct 2023 7:01 pm
|
|
| That's great stuff, Andy and Mike! This is a fun thread! |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 2 Oct 2023 4:21 am
|
|
Here's another minor key move I find very useful. In some circles, it's known as "The minor cliche" because it appears in so many songs - like the Beatle's "Michele" and "What are you doing the rest of your life" - to pick just two out of many.
It comes in handy for adding color over a static minor chord in soloing or arranging. My own personal cliche when playing "Blue Bossa" is to use it over the Cm and Fm chords (3rd and 8th frets in C6th). You can get some really cool Latin vamp sounds too by arpeggiating the chords.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 2 Oct 2023 4:57 am
|
|
| Andy Volk wrote: |
Here's another minor key move I find very useful. In some circles, it's known as "The minor cliche" because it appears in so many songs - like the Beatle's "Michele" and "What are you doing the rest of your life" - to pick just two out of many.
|
Funny I just worked a version of this out. Gotta know these for sure. Or Stairway to Heaven, the most cliche of all! |
|
|
|
Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
|
Posted 2 Oct 2023 5:06 am
|
|
👀
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 2 Oct 2023 8:17 am
|
|
The thing I like about these "music theory" threads in Steel w/o Pedals vs. Pedal steel, the answer to the question "how do I play in minor?" is not "pedal 1, 2 and 4 down yada yada" 
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 3 Oct 2023 4:45 am
|
|
| Andy Volk wrote: |
Here's another minor key move I find very useful. In some circles, it's known as "The minor cliche" because it appears in so many songs - like the Beatle's "Michele" and "What are you doing the rest of your life" - to pick just two out of many.
|
I am no authority on any of this stuff, but you can use this idea in so many ways and it can open many doors. This is a great way to memorize different chords by moving one tone up or down through all the different alterations and inversions. You can find so many hidden chords by doing this. I am always trying to move multiple voices more like piano, or as close as I can get with these instruments. I am still in diapers with steel guitar. I am trying to learn to walk.
If you move the note in the upper part of the chord it has a more melodic function. If you move the note in the middle, it is more like changing the harmonic feel of the chord. My favorite is moving the bass which can lead to all sorts of interesting modulations if you let your ear guide you. Playing with a moving bass seems extremely difficult on steel guitar. I haven't heard may examples of this outside of some of the stuff Mike has done lately. On standard guitar I down tune to C or B which really gets you into walking bass territory. I wish I could stand playing steel with more than 8 strings, I would add 2 more in the low department. |
|
|
|
Mike Harris
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 5 Oct 2023 4:10 am minor keys
|
|
FWIW, the scale that the author of the first article refers to as ("newer, fresher") "jazz minor scale" has been around for ages and is properly known as the ascending melodic minor scale.
That said, there's a lot of good stuff in both articles. |
|
|
|
David M Brown
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 6 Oct 2023 3:34 pm Re: minor keys
|
|
| Mike Harris wrote: |
FWIW, the scale that the author of the first article refers to as ("newer, fresher") "jazz minor scale" has been around for ages and is properly known as the ascending melodic minor scale.
That said, there's a lot of good stuff in both articles. |
Thanks for pointing that out - many things that are "new" in so-called jazz theory are old news in the "classical" world. |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 7 Oct 2023 9:35 am
|
|
You guys are so right about that—there’s nothing new under the sun. The only thing that makes it kind of cool is that the steel guitar still feels like a wide open frontier.
Paul Bley said, and I totally agree with him, that jazz always runs parallel with developments in classical music (what is that even anymore?) but about 75 years behind. That puts steel guitar at about 125 years behind. I hope we start to catch up some more.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
