[PLEASE CLOSE]Player Tone

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Almost every time someone asks a tone question, someone cracks wise about it all being in the hands.

So, let me ask another question. If it's true that tone is solely in the hands....what do you suggest to someone who has been playing for say 20,30 maybe even 40 years or longer, has developed good habits and is still not happy with his tone? Quit? That's as good as it's going to get? What help is available for "hands"?

We've all been through the initial learning process, learning where notes and chords lie on the fretboard, to play in tune, with even volume, and have some education about using eq, reverb and delay properly...so what's left?

A seasoned player has his techniques etc. ingrained and has most likely learned to do the best with the knowledge garnered from years of just playing.

It's easy to criticize and patronize but what help can you offer a concerned seasoned player who is conscientous and seriously looking to improve their sound other than "get better"?

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

1) Play the best possible instrument with pickups that match your style

2) Use an appropriate amplifier with quality reverb, functional eq, and the best possible speaker(s). Use the fewest possible elements in the signal chain to keep noise and phase distortion at a minimum. If necessary using a Steel Guitar Black Box with variable input impedance between pickup and VP can make a significant difference in tone and feel.

3) Use a quality volume pedal designed for steel guitar, and adjust amp volume to keep the VP working where it sounds best

4) Pick it like you mean it, with verve and authority

Just for starters...

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"In the hands" is the meaningless suggestion used in every style in the 6 string world as well. "Style" is in the hands -n different versions of "touch" are NOT tone - they're skill and stylistic nuances mistakenly assumed (usually by non-techs and/or long-time players with myopic views of the instrument as a "one sound" tool) to be "tone".

I suggest what 6-stringers and many professional steel players have done for years - add a volume/tone control circuit to your *guitar* (immediately after the output jack).

I don't understand why builders removed them, as the volume control works differently and adjusts output differently than a floor pedal; and the simple 500k or 1meg pot with a .047uf or .022uf cap circuit virtually everyone used in the 50's and 60's (look at an Emmons push-pull, for example) gives you all kinds of tone options.

You can build one into a simple box that plugs into the output jack. I've added them to every steel lacking them for years - and being a guitar tech for 40+ years I've heard the tone changes they make on pedal steels.

Also try some common effect, like phase shifters, flangers, "clean boosts, overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedals, analog delays (much referred for tone over digital types and reverb) - and one I personally dislike but many use - compressors.

Dm me if you want some reasonably priced suggestions.

Most studio players carry an array of effects on small pedalboards (multi-effects always have one or more very weak points).

And if you are using a solid-state amp, try a 20-40 watt tube amp that's been optimized by a qualified amp tech - that's all the power needed to play perfectly clean (but warmer sounding) tones at band volume - mic'd or not (unless you're playing a huge festival unmic'd).

I don't play coutry, but these rigs work for any style!
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Michael Sawyer · From: North Carolina, USA

Some of the tone is in that right foot settin on that volume pedal....i myself feel like it was/ is another instrument to learn.
Keep in mind im just a weekend bar band hack...

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

Jerry I totally agree with you. That age old expression has been overused. It holds true that striking the proper strings at the right time and place, speed, force,etc. makes music sound great. So that is the hands, and mental experience. The phrase all in the hands probably stems from that philosophy. I personally have to say a good instrument, amp and connecting gear is also important to my ear. At 74 I know I can't progress much further to achieve that edge the pros seem to have. Just relax and enjoy what you have accomplished. I know I will.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Jerry:

You describe my dilemma exactly. If you get a cogent and satisfactory answer, please share it with me. Smile

I do think that Dave Grafe might be on to something. My Emmons is a fine instrument and has a resonance that I can feel in its legs. Perhaps I'll devote some time to being unamplified.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Took me quite a few years to finally FIND the SOUND I hear in my Head. You have to know what YOU and ONLY you; want to hear; in no comparison to anyone but you and your ear. I sat down once on a friends '64 Emmons wraparound and he immediately said: "Ricky; I have NEVER heard a first year Emmons wraparound SOUND like a Sho~Bud; how do you do that??"
I said: "I know what I like to hear"; and I will always pull that sound out of any pedal steel."
P.S. (I wish I could; but I can NOT teach you what you want to hear)
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I sometimes think that tone is a cop-out. We use it to rationalize our shortcomings:

"I don't sound like Buddy (or Weldon, or Lloyd, or any other famous player), so it must be my equipment."

To me, there are no bad tones. I can honestly say that I've never heard a guitar with what I would call a "bad tone". Sure, there were (and will always be) tones I prefer and tones I don't prefer, but none of them are really bad, they're just different. And I think it's good to appreciate and use different tones, but most all steelplayers don't. They're looking for that one tone that will make them happy, that one tone will make others stand up and take notice. They obssess over finding it. I wish them luck, I really do. But mostly, I just think it's a case of "The grass is always greener..."

I once talked to a beginner who had just bought a good steel, but he wasn't happy with his sound. Even though he'd only had the guitar a few months, he asked me if I thought a different pickup would make him sound better. I paused a few seconds, and then told him "No, your problem isn't the pickup. You need some lessons, and lots more practice. That sound, the sound you're wanting to hear, it'll come. You can't buy 'that sound', you have to make it."

And nothing I've ever done made me feel like that day I sat down at his steel and played it, and his face lit up like a kid on Christmas morning. Plainly astonished, he asked me "Wow! How'd you get it to sound like that?!"

Ricky's right, the sound is there in front of you. Find it!

Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

Totally agree with Dave about practicing without an amp. This is just my two cents, but a good guitar, amp, and everything else will only get you so far. Achieving the perfect balance of a clear sound with highs that don’t hurt, and a balanced low end really comes from the way you play.

One thing that seems to be universally true for singers and instrumentalists alike is that when you’re able to relieve tension in your body, technique and the sound you’re getting will improve. “Tone is in the hands” is true for sure, but everything going on in your body and mind comes through your hands and into the instrument. Steel guitar players can learn a lot from classical pianists in terms of relaxing your shoulders, and even striking a string or key with purpose, but loose and relaxed at the same time.

Rick Campbell · From: Sneedville, TN, USA

I know players that everytime they go somewhere and see a good player they come home and order a bunch of gear, effects boxes, speakers, etc... to match the setup they just heard. Often, six months later both players are using different gear, but they still sound the same as before. I've been guilty of some of that myself, but I think I've learned my lesson. If I had spent as much time practicing as I have trying to put the best sounding equipment package together, I'd be a much better player.

Also, I've heard pro players bragging about a new gadget they just got (likely a freebie from the vendor) about how much it has improved their sound, clarity, tone, depth, etc... and I'm thinking, if it improved you that much, you must have really sounded bad before.... but I know they've sounded great all along. Very Happy

RC

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Okay:

I have reconsidered in light of Donny's post.

I love my tone. It's not tone that eludes me, but single-note technique. I can find myself getting a bit sloppy and my picks 'glancing off' the strings.

First, mine's a great example of an Emmons all-pull guitar; I was lucky. The balance of the pick-ups and the warmth and depth of the tone (especially through the Quilter TT12, but even though my tiny 80XL) is all I could wish for.

It's not the guitar's fault that my single-string playing could use work. Smile

My Williams 12-string D13th arrives tomorrow; I'll be more than pleased if its tone compares favourably with my current steel.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Rick,

Every time I read of a top-flight player waxing lyrical about anything - guitar, amp, FX - I can't help being slightly cynical.

Some notable heavy-hitters have been seen playing a wide variety of steels; I hear no apparent difference between John Hughey on an Emmons or a Zum.

It's the way of the world, though - us lesser-players, even subconsciously, do get influenced by what we see just as much as what we hear.

As I said above, sometimes my guitar sounds so good, I'm convinced that I want for nothing in the gear-department. What I now wish for is a chance to tell that 29 year old-Roger to put in 3-4 hours a day practice rather than waiting for it to happen.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I practice unplugged A LOT. Probably too much.

Tone is at least half in the hands, but not much more than that. It is also equally dependent on a good instrument and knowing how to set up the Gain and EQ section of a well-functioning amp. If you can’t get a good clean sound with NO effects, and just your volume pedal properly placed in the signal chain, no amount of outboard gear is going to make it sound any better.

No doubt Paul Franklin would sound KILLER on my Williams plugged into the trusty Katana 100 with my tone settings. Would it be the sound HE wants from a rig? Doubt it.

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

Having read all the posts I have one strange phenomenon to offer. If tone is in the hands then explain why my Derby SD10 3x5 sounds better to my ears than my GFI, BMI, Justice, Stage one and Mullen? I have used the same amp, effects, pedal and pickup but the Derby tops the others by a mile. Chasing tone, you bet. But there it is. Did I eat more that day, have a better nap? Not trying to be a wise guy here but certain guitars sound substantially better than others. Emmons anyone?

Edward Dixon · From: Crestview Florida

Tone is in the ear not the hands. Expression is in the hands. Tone, as it relates to music, is the sum total of various frequencies being expressed by the musician through an instrument and all connected equipment at the point it connects to the ear drum.

I have been having issues with my left ear ever since I had a stroke almost 4 years ago. As a result I don't enjoy playing as much when it's acting up and the sound on the left side is muffled. Same amp/guitar/settings that sound good one day might not the next. So my guess is that tone is something that happens in the ear of each individual listener.
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"Faith don't need no second opinion."

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I think some of the issue might be subjective. I was playing today and during the sound check and run through I thought my tone was sorta dead and thin. Then once the gig kicked in it sounded glorious. It very likely sounded about the same objectively. Record yourself playing in context and step away for bit before listening to it. You might sound better than you think.
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Bob

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Hi Jerry,

When I read your post, I was tempted to respond with some of of my (very important) opinions on how to get good tone. Very Happy

And then I thought--before offering up my suggestions--"I wonder what Jerry's tone sounds like?".

I found a YouTube video of you (I assume it is you) playing "Making Believe" in 2014...
Boogie Sherrard & Jerry Overstreet Makin Believe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouy7wqOqRSQ

I thought the tone you were getting on this video was quite lovely.

What is it about the tone you were getting that you aren't happy with?

- Dave

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Thanks for the compliment Dave. I really appreciate that. Yeah, that's me, Boogie and Ron Browning both gone to a better place now, and Judy on the drums.

I mentioned earlier that it's not about me....I'm not having any particular problems although I'm always striving to be better. it was just an observation that I thought deserved a general discussion. I guess I wasn't clear about my intent.

I see players posting questions about amp settings, pickup choice, fx units etc. People respond with comments like don't waste your money on equipment, you can't buy tone, tone is in the hands. I don't find these comments very helpful to a player who is sincere about improving his sound or maybe just asks a question about gear in general. I find those kind of comments patronizing. We are not petulant 9 yr. old kids that need a scolding.

It's a pet peeve, a gripe I guess, that people who make these kind of comments should offer kind suggestions about what to do with your hands if that's only where tone lies instead of "just be a better player".

FWIW, I like what another member here signs with which is "everything matters".

It's my position that tone is not solely in the hands. It's a combination of all the components and the player. Guitars have tone, amplifiers have tone, speakers have tone, how the player hears his own playing, the mix of effects and eq has an effect on one's tone.

If these things didn't matter, everyone could just play a muddy sounding homemade guitar with a microphonic pickup played through an old Alamo amp and a radio shack speaker in a coffee can.

It all starts with the player and learning how to play properly and in tune of course.

Anyway, people can have their own opinions, but mine is that tone is not all in the hands and you can buy things that help your tone.

These were just some thoughts I had, probably should have just kept them to myself. Thanks for your response.

Charlie Hansen · From: Halifax, NS Canada and Various Southern Towns.

A couple of friends and I were having a jam a few years ago. The steel player used a pretty mellow tone. A friend came along that was a professional steel player for many years (Recording, TV, Live Shows, etc.). He sat down at the steel and never touching a thing the steel sounded completely different (Clear and Clean). I thought it was a different steel. So I guess, again your question hasn't been Answered.
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Point taken Charlie. I stated earlier that I believe tone is a combination of the player and other factors.

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I've never responded to any of these posts because I don't have an authentic answer to this tone question. However, after playing for near 50 years, I feel that your technique has a fair amount to what you produce in sound. But, you must have proper, pro equipment to enhance your "tone". And, each piece of equipment will change your sound. Steel guitars amd their pickups do sound differently. Wood necks and metal necks plus single coil and humbucking pickups make a noticeable difference in sound. Also, many effects and volume pedals will change your sound. So, it's a combination of all of the above stated.
But, most of all, it's you and how you play that creates your sound. The whole aspect is individuality and your control of what you create. Unfortunately, it's a long process for some trying to achieve a decent sound. I dont believe it's a one size fits all comcept.
The search for the perfect sound is an on going process for many. And, for many it's never achieved. But, for others it's pure nirvana..
Well, that's my .02 cents.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Defining the proverbial comment, “tone is in the hands”, a few specific things come to mind.

What shape are your fingers in when the picks attack the string? How does that angle of attack compare to the angle of the thumb as it strikes a string? Is the tone (and volume) produced by your index finger striking the strings the same as your middle finger? How about the thumb? Do we even want to balance that to all be the same? If you wanted to change any of that, could you? After all, the thumb is always going to be farther towards the headstock than the fingers, and it is always going to operate with a larger and stronger muscle than the fingers at a point along the length of the string that is more flexible than where the fingers strike.

Answering a couple of my own questions, my thumb stroke definitely produces a stronger/fuller sound than either of my fingers. I have tried to develop a technique of picking across the top of the strings with index and middle fingers, rather than picking upwards from under them. This is closer to how the thumb strikes the string, but it is still different and the end result is too, and more like a classical guitar “rest stroke”, or a bass guitar attack. It is a different sound.

I think the search for tone is directly related to the process of improving technique, more so than with the process of learning how to manipulate gear. But as I and many others here have said, the quality of equipment and knowing how to use it goes….uh, hand in hand.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Tone has several meanings. When I hear “tone is in the hands”, I think it refers less to the sonic quality of something than it does to the expression of an idea. I think “sound” is a better choice than tone in reference to sonic quality.
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