Emmons push pull

Larry Hopkins · From: Lubbock Texas USA

Just curious,is EMMONS the only manufacturer that made push pulls. Shocked

Lh
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,peavey renown 115,Vegas 400, Peavey envoy, peavy bandit 65 head,baby bloomer
2 -Nashville 400, Emmons SD-10 legrande lll ,Emmons Black Rock ,sho-bud pac a seat,,Jackson Madison 63;

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Promat made sort of a clone of the push pull.
Not sure if they are still in business.
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JCH SD-10 with BL XR-16 pickup, Sho-Bud Volume Pedal, Evidence Audio Lyric HG cables, Quilter Steelaire combo

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Dave Diehl · From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA

Mr. Papic of Promat did pass away and therefore the business closed. But the Promat was an identical duplicate of the Emmons Push Pull. Only difference was, it was built with metric measured parts.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I can't now recall: was the Promat a cut-tail?
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dave Diehl · From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA

Yes Roger, it was.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I have never even played a push/pull, much less owned one. My knowledge is minimal-to-zero regarding the various changes that took place in the early days.

Broadly speaking, then, what I've gleaned is that Buddy's original design (the wrap) fulfilled its promise but, due to some slight technical snafu, it had inherent tuning problems.

These problems were less pronounced on a single-neck guitar which may be why there's a disproportionate number of vintage S10s vs. D10 wraparounds. (True?)

Right at the tail end of their run, the tuning problem was solved but the bolt-on had already made an appearance and, presumably, Ron Lashley decided to adopt that design. Why? More cost-effective?

The bulk of PPs are cut-tails (80-90%?); is it true that economics won the day and compromised Emmons' original and almost flawless design?

I'm happy to be corrected on any wrong assumptions I may have made.

The Emmons Co, it would seem, are cutting no corners. It's reflected in the price-tag but I'm delighted that those first notions are being rigidly adhered to. These new guitars will take their place at the pinnacle of what defines steel guitar's very best.

I can't afford one and don't deserve one but I'm very happy for those who can. Smile

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Kelcey ONeil · From: Sevierville, TN

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks, Kelcey. That's a pretty comprehensive history you provided.

Mind you, the thread got a bit heated, didn't it??

Smile

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Kelcey ONeil · From: Sevierville, TN

Roger,
Here is another brief history from a slightly different perspective concerning the history of the company.

A short Emmons history...

The Emmons guitar began in the early 60's, as a culmination of 2-3 years of Buddy Emmons cataloging enough improvements to the existing Sho-Bud guitars to create a new model altogether. The epitome of these improvements was the push pull changer mechanism, which could reliably raise and lower the same string. Since Shot Jackson seemed to feel that it was too much, too fast, Buddy began to look elsewhere.

He met Ron Lashely backstage at the Ryman, Easter weekend of 1963, and discussed working together on his ideas. By that point, Buddy had already had the changers and fretboards produced, along with some other parts, and Ron mostly took it from there. The first complete prototype seems to have been produced by October of 1963, and was equipped with stereo pickups, which were problematic and abandoned shortly thereafter.

The first production models were heading out by April of 1964, and these represent what is known as the Wraparound model. This means that the neck is completely hollow underneath, and is all one piece, with neck wrapping around the changer, hence the name. Also, the changer attached only to the body, with no contact with the neck or endplate.

All the 1964 guitars(18 or so of them) could be considered prototypes of sorts, as they were still working the bugs out. By this time, it had become apparent there was an issue with the changer mounts, which were too insubstantial to handle the string tension; this resulted in a change to mounts like we now use by early 65.
Perhaps out of concern that similar issue would continue to occur, Ron decided to introduce the "Bolt On" changer mounts in 1966, a design he seemed to think would be more stable.

This design bolted the changer mounts to the top of the neck, and this came with distinct tonal characteristics. The Wraparound was characterized by a very open and sweet sound, owing to all of the strings' energy being directly transfered into the body; whereas with the Bolt On's neck now interacting with the changer, it developed a particularly aggressive tone. Buddy seemed to like the tone, but deemed the change unnecessary; Ron then introduced the Cut Tail around the end of 67, which he presumably viewed as an acceptable compromise.

The Cut Tail featured changer mounts similar to those found on the later Wraparounds, but with the back of the neck now cut out, and replaced with a block of aluminum that also bolted to the back of the changer mounts, with the intent of providing more support. This created another shift in the sound, now with a somewhat thinner, crisp tone. This part of the design carried through until the end of Push Pull production.

Through all of this, Buddy and Ron's relationship had been somewhat tenuous, and due to one reason or another, Buddy asked to be released from his contract with the company about the time he moved to California in 1968 it seems.

In 1970, the Fatback was introduced in response to combat an issue with the aprons severely bowing outwards. The cutout on the back apron was removed, and steel straps added on the bottom of the aprons, as well as straps across the aprons; the pedal stop bar was changed from wood to steel as well. By 1974 or so, this was recognized as overkill, and the apron cutout was resumed, and some of the straps removed; but the steel stop bar was retained. This platform continued until the end of the push pull era. Also during this era, many wooden neck guitars were produced with a lacquer finish; these had the same changer mounts as their 1960s metal neck predecessors, but these are to be considered wood neck guitars, and not Bolt Ons.

In 1973, Buddy re-signed with the company, and continued that relationship until 1983. During this time, the Legrande was announced in 1979, which introduced an all pull changer and integrated split tuning, the latter being an industry first. Due to production problems and issues between Buddy and Ron, deliveries didn't begin until 1983. The differences were so sharp between Buddy and the company, that he sued for an early release from his contract, which a judge subsequently granted.

Deliveries of the Legrande pretty much marked the end of regular push pull production, and it was soon phased out. The LeGrande continued on largely unchanged(with the exception of an optional counter force unit with the Legrande 3) until the original factory was foreclosed on in 2014.
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Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing that.

My experiences with the old Company didn't start until 1998 when I dealt directly with Jim Aycoth. Jim and Joanne always treated me with kindness and respect.

I still have the LG3 D10 he built for me in 2000.

It's sad to read about the tumultuous relationship between Ron Lashley and Buddy. Despite this, E played those two Legrandes almost until the end of his working life. It's my understanding that he paid for both steels, albeit trade price.

One day. I hope to come and visit you guys. Please pass my best wishes to Junior!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Jason Putnam · From: Tennessee, USA

When did the body size change take place?
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1967 Emmons Bolt On, 1995 Mullen PRP 3x5,Nashville 112, JOYO Digital Delay, Goodrich Volume Pedal, Livesteel Strings

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

As a foot note, there was a 25th anniversary Push Pull reissue in the 90s. I’ve been told that this occurred because of some legal troubles that made it impossible for Lashley to make Legrandes for a time. I just had one that I sold. It was a very nice guitar that compared favorably to the original cut tails.
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

They breathed life into some derelict PP bodies in the 2000s. I happened to be there getting a KL fitted and Doug Palmer was at another bench building SD-10 PPs using lacquer bodies that had languished in the basement for years.

I've no idea how many there were or, indeed, how they were numbered (in sequence, or did that just depend on the end-plates he happened to use?) but this would have been around 2004/5.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Larry Hopkins · From: Lubbock Texas USA

What was the years that the Blackrocks were built
Larry
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,peavey renown 115,Vegas 400, Peavey envoy, peavy bandit 65 head,baby bloomer
2 -Nashville 400, Emmons SD-10 legrande lll ,Emmons Black Rock ,sho-bud pac a seat,,Jackson Madison 63;

Jason Putnam · From: Tennessee, USA

The reason I asked about the body width is my bolt is a 10 1/4 inch body width. Same as the wrap around but has a D serial number.
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1967 Emmons Bolt On, 1995 Mullen PRP 3x5,Nashville 112, JOYO Digital Delay, Goodrich Volume Pedal, Livesteel Strings

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