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Topic: Tuning Question |
Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 2:29 am |
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I have a Deckley S10, with 4 pedals and five knees. My floor pedals have two holes each for the pivot pin to the connecting rods. (Please excuse my nomenclature, I don't know the names of all the parts.) When I was shifting between AB pedals and the BC pedals the toe of my shoe would hit the C connecting rod. I noticed that only one pivot pin was in the rail position on the A pedal. I decided to move them all to the holes nearest the rail to give my foot about an extra 3/4 inch clearance. After I did that, the guitar was completely out of tune, not just the pedals. I tuned the guitar back up and started tuning the pedals, get one in tune and the guitar is out of tune. Is this normal? Before I drive myself crazy trying to get everything back in tune is there something I am missing? I was surprised that moving the rods to the different angle would make such a difference. Is it just a matter of perseverance? Can you run out of travel on the pedals and knees and not be able to get it in tune? If so what then? Will I have to move the pivot pins back to where they were? Help me out here folks, I have big feet.
Thanx
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A FATE WORSE THAN LIFE |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 3:21 am
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When trying to tune the A pedal, the low B string pulls a whole step to where it should be. The high B string is way flat. When I tune it up it puts the B string out of tune when the pedal is released. It is way sharp. Then I retune the high B string and using the A pedal it is flat again. The low B string is not affected. I have done this about three times. I am afraid I am going to overturn the end tuner for the A pedal by continually raising on the high B string. I am not sure how that stop works and I don't want to strip or break anything?
I am going to wait for some advice before I go any further.
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A FATE WORSE THAN LIFE |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 4:21 am
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Your initial idea was sound, there are other ways to adjust pedal timing and travel so locating all the pins closest to the pedal bar is very common. Simply moving the pin at the pedal end cannot possibly affect tuning UNLESS the pedal is now hitting the floor first, as the stops that DO control finger movement are all located under the body of the guitar. Accordingly your tuning problem must be located elsewhere and unrelated to ythe change you describe, so carefully look over the instrument, activating pedals and levers while watching for unusual mechanical action, binding, loose parts, etc.. In particular check the return springs and verify that raises do not move the lower fingers and vice versa.
Keep us posted! |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 4:45 am
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I have been doing that. The fourth pedal that was added, (the Franklin) I changed to lower both G#s a half step. Now it is only lowering one. The C pedal is now only raising one string. I am new to the mechanical end of all this but was a machinist for 52 years. There is a lot of play in the pedals. When the pedals are released I can still grab the bell crank and move it more as if they are not returning to position. It is time this guitar gets new strings and a lube job. I have 3 in 1 light motor oil, should I use that? I would think there should be no play in the pedals? If I knew anyone around here that knew anything about PSGs I would bring it to them. It doesn't look like anything is binding. It was all fun and games until I moved the pivot pins. Never had a problem. In the meantime I can't use the pedals. The knee levers seem unaffected. I will get these strings changed, get her lubed up and go from there.
Thanx
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A FATE WORSE THAN LIFE |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 5:27 am
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A) read the thread at the top of this page "Overtuning....."
B) changing the leverage by changing the position of the pull pin on the pedal (an option that some steels have, others do not) can indeed put you in a position where when the pedal hits its stop, it has not pulled the changer as much as it had, before. Changes in leverage elsewhere in the pull chain need to be implemented, either in the pedal stop, the bellcrank hole, or the changer finger hole.
C) read the thread at the top of this page "Overtuning....." |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 6:16 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
A) read the thread at the top of this page "Overtuning....."
B) changing the leverage by changing the position of the pull pin on the pedal (an option that some steels have, others do not) can indeed put you in a position where when the pedal hits its stop, it has not pulled the changer as much as it had, before. Changes in leverage elsewhere in the pull chain need to be implemented, either in the pedal stop, the bellcrank hole, or the changer finger hole.
C) read the thread at the top of this page "Overtuning....." |
Not sure which thread you are referring to, but unless Dekley does something very unique, pedals generally are free floating with all stops at the bellcrank or lever, not the pedal. As I read it the OP effected a change in leverage at the pedal end not the bellcrank, i.e. independent of the actual control mechanism, otherwise I agree with you completely. Am I missing something? |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 6:27 am
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Damn Dave -- I've got no hands-on Dekley experience. I was going by "general practice" combined with some online photos. If this photo is an exception or is mis-identified, then I'm all out of line here.
It does sound like overtuning is still in play.
How about some photos of the guitar in question.
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 7:28 am
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That certainly looks like it. It has the same return spring in the same place. The bell cranks are different. They have three mounting holes each for the rod. It has the screw on the left to adjust as a stop for when the rod is pulled. I don't own a phone so let me load the old digital camera with some batteries and get some pictures. Can I use the 1 in 3 light machine oil (sewing machine oil) to lube her up? I would really like to leave the pivot pins where they are. None of the pedals are touching the floor when depressed.
Thanx all.
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A FATE WORSE THAN LIFE |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 7:31 am
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Not what I thought you were talkung about, still all travel is controlled by the set screw and fixed return stop, changing pedal pulls should not affect tuning at all.
The only way to screw it up is to change holes in bellcranks at the horizontal pull rod links. |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 7:56 am
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Here are some pics. The bell cranks are not returning all the way. I am assuming they should stop on when they hit the "bottom of the top of the body". I have to finish the stroke by hand. They look just like the bell cranks in the photo above except for the three connecting rod holes. Do the big flathead bolts in the side of the body in the first picture have anything to do other than hold the "cross bars" in?
Thanx again.
_________________
A FATE WORSE THAN LIFE |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 8:07 am
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Again, changing the holes the pedal rods are placed in does nothing to affect tuning UNLESS something is binding.
Did you by chance tighten "the bolts on the back of the body?" Overtightening those would def interfere with the rotation of the shafts and thus impede the fingers returning to their slack position. The fact that they have slots suggests the intention of adjusting end travel of individual cross-shafts to avoid binding.
Last edited by Dave Grafe on 20 Jun 2023 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 8:12 am
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I am reading the thread at the top now. That is exactly what it is doing. The way the changer is built it is difficult to see if they are up against the stop. Looking from the backside of them it doesn't look like some are up against the stop which I think is just a thin steel plate perpendicular to the changer that the springs pull it back to. I will finish reading the thread and get back to the guitar.
Can I use 3 in one light machine oil? Since I have it upside down and checking it out I ought to lube it.
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A FATE WORSE THAN LIFE |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 8:19 am
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
Again, changing the holes the pedal rods are placed in does nothing to affect tuning UNLESS something is binding.
Did you by chance tighten "the bolts on the back of the body?" Overtightening those would def interfere with the rotation of the shafts and thus impede the fingers returning to their slack position. |
I don't know what you mean by bolts on the back. I did snug the "bolts" on the front? Now, like everything on a car is in relation to you being in the drivers seat, I don't know if there is a same system. What I have been calling the back of the guitar is where the pedals are, I guess that should be called the front. The "bolts" I snugged are facing me when I sit at the guitar, the large flat headed ones in the first picture. That is why I asked about them.They all seemed to be shy of snug. I try never to over tighten anything. I was trying to get some play out of the pedal A by doing so. It seemed to help so I did them all. That was before I moved the pivot pins though and it seemed to play alright?
Thank you.
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A FATE WORSE THAN LIFE |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 8:25 am
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Hi Jerry,
What it sounds like is just what Jon and Dave have brought out.
Let's put it another way: When you have the pedal pivot screws AWAY from the shaft, it increases stiffness of the pedal action, but requires less up/down movement to reach the stop. Putting the screw closer to the shaft, makes it easier to move but increases up/down pedal movement required to reach the stops. Is the pedal hitting the floor or something else?
Such a situation would require retuning, but without readjusting the stops, you would run into the "overtuning" that was mentioned, and that sounds like what it is.
Put your pivot screws back where they originally were and retune. If everything is back to normal, then Jon and Dave were correct.
Assuming you still need the screws out of the way, then just do it one at a time, adjusting stops and correcting pedal movement before going on to the next pedal.
Luck on your work....Pat.
Last edited by Pat Chong on 20 Jun 2023 8:42 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 8:25 am
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Yes -- you can use 3 in 1 oil. Go LIGHT with it.
A complicated analysis........
If changing the rod hook-up point on the pedal alters the at-rest geometry so that the angle changes (at rest), denoted by the green lines, then I fear that the start and stop points of the whole cross shaft are changed (yellow arrows). There may be a possibility that the bellcranks are making contact with the undersides of the deck (pink).
Things can really get out of whack. Bellcranks hitting the deck at rest are ok. Hitting the deck as actual stops....not good.
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 8:29 am
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| Jerry Dragon wrote: |
The "bolts" I snugged are facing me when I sit at the guitar, the large flat headed ones in the first picture. That is why I asked about them.They all seemed to be shy of snug. I try never to over tighten anything. I was trying to get some play out of the pedal A by doing so. It seemed to help so I did them all. That was before I moved the pivot pins though and it seemed to play alright?
Thank you. |
That is the "back" and those are adjusting plugs that were "shy of snug" for a reason.
NOW: Turn your guitar upside down and loosen them one at a time until you can feel a bit of movement when pushing the associated cross-shaft end-to-end from back to front and back again. There must be enough slack for rod to rotate freely, typically 1/16" or so.
If it ain't broke anybody can fix that |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2023 10:12 am
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That did the trick. She seems to be working okay now, just have to fine tune her, she's close now. I must confess, I have owned this guitar for a few years but never really practiced. I would go for awhile, get frustrated and let her slide. I have played guitar for 59 years and am no slouch.On the PSG I know where a lot of "everything is, I know my basic theory, but I couldn't hit the strings I was aiming at.That is the frustrating part, knowing and not being able. Well, I have been practicing everyday now at least an hour a day. I am finally having success hitting the strings I am aiming for and picking up speed. Things are looking up and I want to thank all who helped me out here. Saved me a lot of time and taught me something at the same time.
Anyone interested in my original music can find it here. There is no pedal steel to speak of and no country to speak of but you might enjoy it anyway.
THANX AGAIN!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMgevEkujQUerxvNqYNJ8PQ
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A FATE WORSE THAN LIFE |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 22 Jun 2023 3:12 am
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The picture that show the changer mechanism from under the guitar shows string 1, 3, 4 and 5 beeing possibly overtuned. String 5 is a definitly overtuned as you can see the raise finger already pulled a lot and not beeing inline with the lowering finger.
Looking at the cross-shafts on the two pictures further down the same post, they all seem to have this slightly angled set screw that will create a physical stop for how much the cross shaft will rotate.
Be aware that the cross shaft need to be able to rotate just a little more than what is required for the pull on those strings that are affected by that particular cross-shaft/bellcrank/pullrods!!!
If not, that set screw might limit your pull to just shy of the pull needed and trying to adjust the pull at the nylon tuner at the end of the pullrod will 100% result in an overtuned situation where your open string will become flat if the pull is tuned to the note you want.
Backing off that set screw just a little to allow for a little more rotation of the cross-shaft would get all those raise fingers back to where they should be(after re tuning the nylon tuners) when they are not engaged by lever/pedal.
Since there are return helper springs installed, none of the nylon tuners should actually touch any of the riase/lowering fingers unless pullrods are beeing activated by a pedal or lever. If any nylon tuners are in contact with the raise/lowering then the set screw is incorrectly adjusted.
Unhooking the return helper springs on those cross shafts might improve the feel/response when using pedal/levers.
Only then would you see that the nylon tuners be touching the raise/lowering fingers with no pedals/levers engaged.
Those helper return springs may be needed and they may not be needed.
Anything that can improve how the guitar plays and performs is worth considering.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12ext E9 7+7 |
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