How to change over from Day to Emmons setup on a Carter D10

Dave Alden · From: North Carolina, usa

Ok,

Long long ago...fading off....I started on a Sho-Bud Maverick which was an Emmons setup. I got my present Carter D10 several years ago and it's a Day setup. Which flopped only the A and C pedals so..I adjusted to it.

Fast forward a few years and...my ankle does not roll line it used to. I am ever so slightly moving the LKL and it's ugly when I try to roll off the C pedal and hold B down.

Thinking of going back to ABC rather than CBA as it seems that roll dies not move LKR...

How difficult to change that setup on a Carter? Never messed with a change tis big before.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

It's super easy to change from Day to Emmons on a Carter, only requires a little time and patience, a 3/16" tuning wrench and an allen wrench for the bell cranks. It just involves removing and relocating the affected pull rods and associated bell cranks to re-assign them using the same bell crank and changer holes for each change. It often requires swapping one or both of your E raises or lowers too if they're on the left knee levers, but it's all the same process. Just list or map in which hole each pull to be changed is currently located in the changer and bell cranks and match those assignments for the new pedal and lever locations. It's a good idea to take plenty of close up pics for reference too.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

The screws that secure the bell crank to the cross shaft is actually a T10 torx screw. They can be really tight and the torx head and/or wrench strips easily. I use a T-handle torx wrench, insert it into the screw head and lightly tap the torx wrench handle with a hammer. That usually loosens them up.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I'm not sure that Torx screws were ever intended to be removed once they're installed. They go in much better than they come out.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

I'm not sure if i can say this on here but a Wheeler smithing screw driver set has a really good T-10 in the kit and works great on these Carters
thanks
wayne
_________________
Owner Out West Music,Seats,Parts and accessories
www.outwestcountry.ca

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Dave Alden · From: North Carolina, usa

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I think it's a big deal for almost everyone and it's strictly a personal ergonomic decision. If your ankle turns better one way than the other, so be it. That drives the decision.

But you don't want to dive in and switch the pedals around unless you're pretty sure. One way to test drive a pedal swap is to temporarily convert your C-pedal into an A-pedal.

Just unscrew the C-pedal's hex nut used to tune the 4th-string raise until it's not raising that string at all. Now, that pedal will be a fake A-pedal, only raising string 5 (well, it's actually just half of an A-pedal, because there's no accompanying raise on the 10th).

Try using that along with the B-pedal to see how the rocking works for you ankle. To make it a fair test, you may have to adjust the height of your temporary fake A-pedal to maximize comfort in rocking on and off each of the two pedals while holding down the other.

Another consideration: if you do reverse the order of your pedals and make it Emmons, you're probably going to need to swap two knee levers too. IF your E-string-raise lever is currently on one of the left knee levers, you will probably want it on the knee closest to the A-pedal (which would be LKL). You want it there so you can easily use those two together (i.e., A+F). Otherwise, if you have it on LKR, it's a pretty brutal gymnastic move trying to use it along with the A-pedal.

So... for many guitars, going from Day to Emmons (or vice versa) means more than just doing a pedal swap. It often means a knee lever swap too -- depending on where the E-string-raise lever is currently sitting. Meanwhile, if the E-raise is currently over on one of the right knee levers, you probably don't need to make any changes to knee levers.

Dave Alden · From: North Carolina, usa

Dave Alden · From: North Carolina, usa

Ok y'all,

So I moved the lever adjustment a bit...and when I pick up my heel I can roll just fine. Guessing I somehow got my muscle memory a bit confused wanting to plant the heel.

Is it proper form to lift the heel off the floor to facilitate rolling from C to B and then off B..

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Dave, whatever you can do best is by definition legal in all 50 states.

If you play abroad... somebody may flag you on something, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Very Happy

Dave Alden · From: North Carolina, usa

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I sometimes lift my heel when playing.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I confess that I avoid using the C pedal (my P1 - I play 'Day') in tandem with the B pedal simply because it involves lifting my foot and moving across to 1 and 2.

Lately, though, I've been endeavouring to assimilate it into my playing and just practicing that move.

As far as whether or not it's correct to lift your heel, many years ago I came to the conclusion that it was okay to do what I needed to do in order to play what was in my head. Then I started to become a bit too conscious that this-or-that 'wasn't good form' and that I should retrain myself in certain arears.

Now? I'm back doing what is comfortable. I can play okay with any number of so-called 'flaws'; I'm not going to allow any of that to inhibit my music.

(I'm now considering moving my CBA pedals one space to the right, and putting my 9,6,3-lower at #1; that might bring 'B&C' within easier reach.)
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
----------------------------------

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I wonder if Carter steels when being assembled, Had some sort of impact tool used on those Torque Head screws.
If an impact tool was used to put them in, That hammering/vibrating effect really stressed them.

The best way to loosen them it to use an impact tool to loosen them and then retighten them with a hand powered tools.

When impact wrenches first put in use, They started using them in the the tire business. They tightened lugs so tight. The tools supplied in a vehicle, The driver could not loosen the lug nuts, When a tire went flat. You had to use an impact wrench to loosen them.
I know at that time many wrecker services put Air Compressors and impact wrenches on their wreckers, For road service calls.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Yep, a tow truck's the answer Dave Smile

_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Kind of off topic but maybe not. I owned and played 3 different Carter D10's, I always thought they were great guitars.

BUT Whenever I yanked out one of those TORQUE screws I replaced them with St ST Allen Head screws.

I was a nice friend of Johns ( RIP) , we spoke often and we talked about the Torque Head screws every now and then. I believe he told me he purchased them by the thousands ( pounds) . While I don't believe he ever said the words I do think he thought they were a weak spot in manufacturing.

The last Carter D10 I owned which was a 2004, 9+8 , ( great guitar) one day I put it on the bench and changed all of the TORQUE HEAD screws to St St Allen Head. And yes, some of them were a war to remove but I won the war. I'm a tinkerer, the one thing I could never get past on the Carters was the tiny brass dog bones used to hook the rods in the bell cranks. Other than that they are excellent guitar's , very well made.

Peace !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Dave Alden · From: North Carolina, usa

[quote="Roger Rettig"]I confess that I avoid using the C pedal (my P1 - I play 'Day') in tandem with the B pedal simply because it involves lifting my foot and moving across to 1 and 2....

Yep, oddly I guess we are all built a little different and guitars are, generally not so much different entirely. Rolling off pedal 1 to 2 only then off 2 and back is no problem. But my knee goes an inch over on 2 and three. Seeing as several folks have replied that it's ok to lift...lifting I shall do. Seems some muscle memory did come back when I realized it. Perhaps I was doing that 8 years ago and forgot.

I am learning "what a friend we have in Jesus" and that change is required. The awful detune from bumping the lever was not a pleasure to hear...got through it a couple of times now with a lift of the heel.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I play Day set up. When setting guitar up I raise the C pedal higher than the B pedal. When my foot is on the B-C combo, My foot is at an angle not a complete move and pedals straight down. Just pivot on my heel, I have B-C, Pivot back to A-B pedals.

If you ever have to play the song SOMEDAY SOON, May want B-C pedal combo. In G chord. The melody needs both Em and Bm.
If you bar at 3rd fret G, Em A pedal, The Bm is B-C pedal at 5th fret.
G at 10th fret A-B pedals down. Bm A pedal, Em 10th fret with B-C pedals.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Lol, after playing Day, don’t know why anyone would want to change to Emmons setup. Pedal rocks are so much easier and makes much more sense. I’ve noticed that most that play Emmons when pumping A pedal actually move their whole foot just to A pedal, but no mater, whatever works for you.

I have changed many Carters set ups and found no trouble loosening the bell crank screws are Allen’s or what ever they are. Just make sure your wrench is correct size and should be easy. I have more trouble with those dog bones.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Bobby:

I've run out of adjustment on my pedal-length. The Emmons' rods are threaded only so far and that grommet (??) into which the ball is inserted will only go so far 'up'.

I know it would be possible to shorten the rods but, I fear, that's a project just beyond my capabilities.

I play with the length of the rods constantly. Sometimes the B pedal seems too low, sometimes I can't quite depress the A pedal (#3) sufficiently to reach the C#.

Having said that, I dread to think how it would feel to play 'Emmons'. Sometimes, in an idle moment, I will play the C and B pedals (1 + 2) as if they're A + B (avoiding the 4th string) just to see what it's like. I don't know how anyone manages it but hundreds seem to do it very well. It takes a really conscious effort for me to roll off my first pedal while keeping a straight left leg and the B depressed.

'Day' rules! Smile

_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
----------------------------------

Dave Alden · From: North Carolina, usa

[quo

Having said that, I dread to think how it would feel to play 'Emmons'. Sometimes, in an idle moment, I will play the C and B pedals (1 + 2) as if they're A + B (avoiding the 4th string) just to see what it's like. I don't know how anyone manages it but hundreds seem to do it very well. It takes a really conscious effort for me to roll off my first pedal while keeping a straight left leg and the B depressed.

'Day' rules! Smile

[/quote]

I learned on a old maverick, the brown ones not the earlier ones. Pretty sure they were all Emmons...when I got this one it was Day. It did not take much using Winnie Winston's book to get back to where I left off. I just had to mentally transcribe the tabs to fit the setup. I think I could play either...if I tried. But outside of this odd little incident I think I do prefer the Day setup. I can roll AB either way...gotta lift for BC..but that maybe age, and making sure the seat is close enough to the guitar.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I seen my suggestion about air impact wrench use, Proved again Monday night. My neighbor Rick and I was fighting a nut to remove a pulley from his 13 year old lawn mower.

Neighbor Rick borrowed long handled Rachet Wrench, We got the pulley locked solid, Gave it a shot of Kano Kroil, Pecked it with a hammer, And could not get the nut loose, Even with white knuckles and some No No words.

When neighbor Gary came from work, We borrowed his Air Impact Wrench, I loaded my air compressor to 125 lb., Put the Impact Wrench and socket on the problem nut. Pulled the trigger. BUDDDDDA----Buzz and the problem nut was OFF the shaft, Now waiting on new parts to arrive.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic