3rds or 6ths?

Russell Adkins · From: Louisiana, USA

got a question for yall , When playing a single note melody and you want to harmonize the notes what do you use 3rds or 6ths?

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

3rds, 6ths or 10ths or some combination of those would be my choice. It all depends on the melody line and what else is gonna be present in the arrangement. Too much paralell harmony is something to be aware of as it can become a little boring for the listener. Octaves can sometimes be very useful as well here and there instead of 3rds, 6ths or 10ths.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

A 6th is just an upside-down 3rd, and a 10th is just a 3rd’s distant relative.
4ths and 5ths are usually the perfect strangers.
Tritones are criminals.
2nd’s and 9ths are leftovers, sometimes stale and other times quite tasty.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

3rds and 6ths are the same, just inverted. But, just like everything in music appearing to "be the same" however, they sound very differently.

When you listen to Jerry Byrd, then Lloyd Green and BE, you hear that they alternate every so many "picks" from 3rds to 6ths and back... Byrd and Emmons are noted to also play very neatly in "4ths", which are inverted 5ths extensively sometimes. Evidently, that takes a solid bass and accompaniment structure behind the soloist, not to sound "eerie" or "hollow".
When you analyze JB's solo albums, you'll find that in most tunes he uses EACH technique: Single notes, a section with hammer-ons-&-pull-offs, playing in 3rds & 6th, a run in 4ths/5ths and then some chord melody. His rendition of Danny Boy is a text book demonstration thereof.

Jazz guitarist Joe Pass stated that he alternates bass line fragments with single note playing, harmony and chord melody to give "the IMPRESSION" of playing solo and accompaniment at the same time. He was known to do concerts ALONE, on a 6 string guitar. That's how he could.

... J-D.
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Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

I'm confused by what seems to be some different concepts or terminology being used here than what I have read in various music theory books.
Perhaps there is a new way of counting scale degrees that I am not aware of, so perhaps one of you folks who are more steeped in music theory than I am can please help me understand it. Smile

It's always been my understanding that scale degrees are always counted upwards: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
For example, a major triad consists of scale degrees 1, 3, and 5; in the key of C, that would be C-E-G.

● And no matter how you invert C-E-G to E-G-C or G-C-E, or repeat certain notes: G-C-E-G or E-G-C-E, it is still a C major triad--isn't that correct?

● And if you label the scale degrees in an inversion such as G-C-E-G', it would be 5-1-3-5, even though the first 5th degree (G) is an octave below the second 5th degree (G')--isn't that also correct?

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When I hear someone talk about harmony with a 6th, that would imply something very different to me, since (counting upward) a 6th chord consists of 1-3-5-6; C-E-G-A in the key of C.

It seems to me then, in answer to the OP's question that "The most common harmonies are thirds and fifths", since those are the two harmonies found in a major triad: 1-3-5, no matter in what register they are voiced--or am I missing something?

Inquiring minds want to know. Smile

- Dave

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

My understanding of basic western music is that degrees of the major scale and the modes therein are numbered 1-7 and then start over at the octave. Interval numbers, however, can go beyond the octave. That’s how we end up with chords with names like B11 and E13.

So if you want to harmonize your scale in 13ths (an octave past the 6th) there is no law against it. Just go 13 scale degrees past your starting note and play them together.

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Hi JD,

Thanks for your quick reply confirming my understanding of how scale degrees are counted.

I also wrote:

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Russell, your inquiry is related to musical choices and options. Lots of great perspectives in the thread here.

Use your ear and play what you feel works best...

Different moments will present different harmonic opportunities in an arrangement or improvisation.

Sometimes the limitations will dictate which way to go.
Cooking up a solo chord / melody arrangement will put you very quickly in touch with this reality... Wink

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

You got it, JD.
Explaining the difference between intervals and scale degrees is harder to do than understanding it, apparently.

Harmonizing a scale in 6ths just means playing two notes that are 6 degrees of the scale apart.
C D E F G A B
D E F G A B C
E F G A B C D
etc.

Same with 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 13ths…

A 3rd is probably the most common harmony because it is the most easily understood. Chords are built on 3rds. Everyone kinda gets the 1-3-5 chord formula. A small step beyond that is grasping the concept of the separate intervals. From the 1 to the 3 is a 3rd, and from the 3 to the 5 is also a 3rd.

C D E F G A B
D E F G A B C
etc.

From there, you can go all the way down the rabbit hole of theory.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

I have been teaching mostly adults (and some kids) guitar, banjo, (and occasionally pedal steel) for many years.

You might be surprised how few adults, even those who play an instrument or sing in church, know that the diatonic scale is simply the do-re-mi notes they learned in grade school, or know that they are called “scale degrees”, or know that the chromatic scale is the Western musical “alphabet”, or know that there is no B# or E# in the chromatic scale, etc.
● So, I gradually teach those basic concepts because these are important concepts to support a common language when playing with other musicians and to understand the “hidden” patterns of music in an easy-to-understand fashion.
● I always try to slip in a bit of what I call “practical bandstand music theory” (chord progressions using the chord number system (I, IV, V) and later, basic chord construction)—even though many people initially seem visibly frightened when I mention the words “music theory”.
● Once they understand these basic concepts, they often tell me what a "light-bulb moment" it was for them.😊

I strive to be a good teacher, and in my experience it is not how much you know that makes a good teacher, it is how well you can simplify complicated concepts to make them easy to understand. Music theory is a complicated concept, especially to people who are not familiar with it.
● I believe the "KISS" principle (Keep It Super Simple) is the most effective way to teach.
● The goal should be explanations that result in “light bulb moments” for your students, not in "baffling black holes” of confusion--wouldn't you agree?

***********************************************************************************************.
The original poster appeared to be asking:“What are the most common notes used to add harmony to a melody note?.”

Although I lay no claim to being a musical theory expert, this is a simple question.

Here is the simple "KISS" answer to the original poster’s apparent question:
“The most common notes used to add harmony to a melody note are the third and fifth scale degrees of the diatonic scale.”

This is a simple and accurate “foundational” (meaning you can build on it) answer to the question, and it has often created a “light bulb moment” for my students.

The evidence for this simple foundational answer is overwhelming: country trio singing, gospel trio and quartet singing, barbershop quartets, folk music and bluegrass trio singing, church choirs and hymnals, the standard “grips” on an E9 pedal steel guitar, etc.
Why? Because major and minor triad chords based on 3rds and 5ths sound most harmonious and pleasing to the human ear, as Pythagoras discovered many centuries ago.

For more info on musical harmony, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony

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Good teachers do not over-complicate things with confusing terminology and unhelpful explanations. But unfortunately, several posters on this thread have done just that--and never answered the OP's apparent question.

Yes, I do know the difference between “scale degrees” and “intervals”, but I’m not sure some of the posters on this thread do, because they are mixing two related, but not-quite-interchangeable terms and thus creating confusion and bafflement.
It is as if you have asked a petrol station attendant, “How far is it to New York City from here?” and he answers, “It’s 100 miles to NYC and 115.1 miles coming back.”
How can that be? It turns out that his answer is technically true, but what the attendant’s smart-@$$, baffling answer leaves out is that it is 100 land-miles to NYC, and 115.1 nautical miles back. These are two related, but not-quite-interchangeable terms-- unless they are explained and clarified.

“Scale degrees” and “intervals” are also two related, but not-quite-interchangeable terms--unless they are clarified.
According to formal music theory books, melodic intervals between “scale degrees” are properly named in terms of “quality” (such as a "Major Third" or a “Perfect Fourth”, etc.), and are always measured up (ascending) from the tonic note.
“Intervals” are formally measured in semi-tones in either direction--ascending or descending.

Here is how they are related:
● For example, in the key of C, a Perfect Fourth (F) is an interval of 5 semi-tones up (ascending) from the tonic note of C: C#, D, D#, E, F.
● However, if a Perfect Fourth is voiced BELOW the tonic, it is an interval of 7 semi-tones down (descending) from the tonic note of C: B, A#, A, G#, G, F#, F. When intervals are measured descending from the tonic note, it is called an “interval inversion”.

The easiest way to demonstrate this is to count the frets from C on your guitar up or down to F, since each fret is a semitone—something I normally do with students when the question of practical application on the instrument comes up.

But when someone asks a very basic question, such as “What are the most common notes used to add harmony to a melody note?”, why over-complicate things with “interval inversions”?
● It is as if a first-grader asks you “What is 2 plus 2?”, and you say, “Let’s solve that with calculus. First, we need to calculate the derivative of X squared, so substituting 2 for X…blah, blah, blah”.

So it would appear that some of the confusing explanations posted on this thread, such as “a harmony (interval) of “a 6th” could be looked as a minor 3rd by inverting the Root to the other side” is using two related, but not-quite-interchangeable terms—without clarifying them, just like in the “land-miles” and “nautical-miles” analogy.
I think I understand what the poster is trying to say in that rather baffling sentence above—but I would never explain it in such a confusing way to one of my students.
● A simpler, more effective way to explain it would be: “As we’ve already discussed, no matter how the notes in a chord are re-sequenced (“inverted”), they still remain the same chord. For example, a C6 chord (C-E-G-A) can be inverted to A-C-E-G, with the 6th scale degree (A) below the root note (C), and it still remains a C6 chord. Let’s listen to how this sounds on your guitar to prove it.”

But why get into “interval inversions” here? That is like using calculus instead of basic addition. And that was not what the OP seemed to be asking about.
**************************************************************************************.
The OP appeared to be asking: “What are the most common notes used to add harmony to a melody?”
But instead of answering his question, several posters over-complicated the issue by getting lost in the unhelpful weeds of “interval inversions”, making smart-@$$ jokes, and even explaining all of the possible notes that one could use as harmony notes in a rather condescending way—without ever simply answering his apparent question: “What are the most common notes used to add harmony to a melody?”

No wonder so many people are afraid of music theory.

-Dave

Ryan Wells · From: Midwest, USA

The OP's question was a good one imo. It probably depends on the song style and what the vocal melodies are doing. I recently heard Tommy White say in a video that he uses a lot of sus chords in an attempt to stay out of the singers way. I'm really curious on other's thoughts are on this (maybe that's a different post?). In my personal opinion, I think sus chords can be a more "modern" sound.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You can do both 3rds or 6ths using the same technique. Play a simple harmonized scale on strings 5 and 3. That is playing in 6ths. Play the exact same thing on strings 5 and 6. That is playing 3rds. You should be able to do either one depending on how you want it to sound.
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Pete McAvity · From: St. Louis, Missouri USA

Pete McAvity · From: St. Louis, Missouri USA

Pete McAvity · From: St. Louis, Missouri USA

Andy Henriksen · From: Michigan, USA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

[quote="Pete McAvity"]

Larry Hopkins · From: Lubbock Texas USA

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Lh
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J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

In case anyone is still reading through this mess, I think it’s time to rescue it from the weeds of music theory and bring it back to the pedal steel guitar realm. I have nothing better to do this morning, waiting for my roofer to show up.

A lot of this terminology is on display by looking at the neck of your instrument. Each successive fret, from 0 all the way up to 24, represents a 1/2 step interval (also called a “semitone”) on each string. It doesn’t matter what key you are in, or what single string you play, or what its note name is. Each time you move your bar up one fret, you have raised the pitch of that string by a 1/2-step interval.

As you go up the neck with the bar and add up the frets, you increase the number of 1/2 step intervals from the open string. Each of those fret distances from the open string has a name for the interval it creates (and a note name, but that’s NOT what is being discussed). I’m not going to list them. You can look them up on any decent free theory website. Just a couple, since we are talking about 3rds and 6ths —-

3 frets (3 half-steps) = minor 3rd
4 frets (4 half-steps) = major 3rd
8 frets (8 half-steps) = minor 6th*
9 frets (9 half-steps) = major 6th

*can also be called “flat” 6th, but more often called “sharp 5th” or “augmented 5th” because of what it represents in a chord formula where the 5th in a 1-3-5 triad is raised by a 1/2-step interval. Put that in your smoke…

The golden rule for naming intervals is that they are always measured from the lower pitch to the higher one. That’s why C to A is a major 6th and A to C is a minor 3rd. I know, more smoke…

In other news. Obviously you can do simple math and call 8 half-steps by the name of 4 whole-steps. If you don’t understand the difference between a half and a whole, then you might be eating too much pie.

So, finding intervals on one string is easy now, right? Finding them on two strings is where things can get complicated. One thing you can do on your pedal steel to get started is figure out the intervals between each pair of adjacent strings. For example, use your bar on string 9 to find the same pitch as open string 8. Don’t worry about note names, just look at which fret your bar is on. That tells you the number of 1/2 steps in the interval. Then you can look up the name if you want. Or I can tell you. It’s 2 frets, 2 half-steps (or one whole step), and the interval is called a major 2nd.

The fun starts when you find the fret where the unisons on string 9 are with string 7, 6, 5, etc. The real adventure begins when you can name all the intervals between all the strings. Then start using pedals and levers and moving the bar and see if the interval names start clicking.

I don’t believe this knowledge of theory inherently makes you a better player. But having the understanding and the ability to put it into practice does.

Pete McAvity · From: St. Louis, Missouri USA

J.D. & Fred- thank you both so much. I'm finding more and more that even though I've been relying on right brain "feel" for 15 years, it all comes together when I actually do the left brain homework & familiarize myself with intervals and the why/how aspects of hearing/playing. Now I just need to actually do the damn work and let the acquired knowledge run in the background of the operating system. I really appreciate you both firming up foundational concepts- it's a tremendous help for me.
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