Swapping levers on Derby....advice needed.

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

I've just acquired a Derby SD10 (3x5) which is set up with both E's on the left. I've been playing with E lower on RKL for years, and that's how my other guitar (MSA S10) is set up. In theory, the Derby should be easy to swap RKL and LKR, but I've run into a problem.

On the Derby, RKL has the common raise on strings 1&2 and the 6th string lower. I'll need to get one longer pull rod, but that's not my problem. The square cross shaft on several of the levers...including LKR...stops being square and is rounded for the final couple of inches....right where I need to mount the bell crank for the strings 1&2 raise. So while it's possible to move my E lower to RKL where I'm used to it, I don't see how to get the same functionality out of LKR.

I haven't been able to figure the logic to using the extended rounded ends on the cross shafts. I thought of swapping cross shafts too,(gawd awful lot of work) but I can't see how to get them out...it almost looks like the guitar was assembled around them. Any help on that...or how to mount the bell crank so it lines up with strings 1&2 would be appreciated.
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1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10, 1975 Session 400
1972 Dobro model 66s
Derby SD-10
Tom McDonough

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

The shafts are 5/16, the rounded portion is probably 1/4? Finding bell cranks with that small mount surface may be difficult to match up. I don't know if you can tighten a standard stainless steel Derby crank down on it enough to hold.

I see the rounded portion you describe in the pics of other Derbys. The only thing I can surmise is that this was done for clearance.

I guess that's just the way Charlie set theim up. I know several players used RKL for lowering Es but I don't know how they dealt with the 1,2,6 change. I guess they were set up that way when ordered so that the shafts would be usable at the ends.

I once removed and later re-installed a cross shaft for the extreme right end pedal 9 position on a Derby I once owned so I know it can be done.

It's a bit tedious and may require removing the center rail depending on the location of the shaft you want to remove.

You need a small blade to push back the spring loaded dowel, put pressure on it to hold it for another grip and repeat over and over until the dowel is free.

You can try removing just some of the screws that hold the center rail and loosening others to see if you can manuever the shaft out. Good luck.

I left this post below on another thread.

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

Thanks Jerry. The retractable dowel is the piece I was missing. Yes, I believe the center rail will need to be raised.....and there is stuff attached to it that will need to be either removed or readjusted. I hate to get it done and then find the reasoning behind the rounded section was due to a clearance issue. If it wasn't for 40 yrs of muscle memory, I'd just change my MSA to be like the Derby.
_________________
1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10, 1975 Session 400
1972 Dobro model 66s
Derby SD-10
Tom McDonough

Larry Hobson · From: Valley Grande (Selma) Al USA

Same thing on my derby. All I did was put the bell crank at the end of the square close enough to hang on before slipping off onto the round part. then bend an off set on the pull rod to bring it on over to line up with the changer finger. Off set bend can be anywhere along the length of the rod where there is clearance preferable closer to the bell crank (in my case ) but anywhere should be ok. Pull rod off set bend needs to be oriented when you tighten the set screw .

chuck lemasters · From: Jacksonburg, WV

Tommy,
The half stop mechanism can be left attached when you lift the center rail. I changed the E lowers on my Derby, also moved the floor pedals right one space. I did not encounter the rounded cross rod…swap it for another one, possible. I did have a clearance issue when positioning the 1st string raise bell crank so close to pedal three. I found it almost impossible to hook up the pedal rod, ended up filing a bit from the front edge of the hook on the pedal rod. The most difficult part of the whole deal was getting all the nylon bushings in the center rail to line up and the rail to sit down in position..

chuck lemasters · From: Jacksonburg, WV

I think Larry has the right idea….put a bend in the pull rod …that would have eliminated my clearance problem.

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

Larry Hobson · From: Valley Grande (Selma) Al USA

Would only try to move over one space with an offset bent rod. Would need another Bellcrank to move over more than one string. Excessive bent rod would probably stretch out. You reference the bellcrank being near the rounded end of the cross rod at the front apron to line up with strings 1 and 2. If this is correct then a bent offset pull rod can be utilized to pull string 1. String 2 pull rod will probably be in line with the bell crank at the edge of the square part . You can probably connect both strings 1 and 2 to this one bellcrank .This may free up an extra bellcrank to install in line with your last string instead of having to make an excessive bend. Bends are usually about 30 to 45 degrees or so.

chuck lemasters · From: Jacksonburg, WV

The LKR lever has to be removed to get to the screws on the center rail. I put a drop of penetrating oil on the spring loaded pins and was able to push them in with needle-nose pliers, pulling up on the cross shaft to hold the pin in place while I got another bite with the pliers. The whole job looks more daunting than it turns out to be.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I'm trying to think like Charlie. He was not afraid to take short cuts to re-configure a set up on a used guitar within reason, but he always wanted to maintain proper playability.

He did some things to make my Derby 8+8 from 10+10 that I might not have thought of.

There were a few gradual one string space bends here and there. I'm not sure 2 or 3 space bends would be stable enough even with the factory stainless steel rods.

I guess there's nothing to lose with trial but it seems a little extreme to me.

Yes, you can use a single bell crank for the 1 & 2 raise provided the leverage works. I do that sometimes where I want to save space or run out of cranks.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

If you have to make that big an offset in a rod. May want to consider using a piece of Drill Rod the same size as the factory pull rod. Thread the ends if needed, Any other machining needed, Then make bends, Heat and quinch the rod, Then heat soak in an oven to obtain proper hardness. This would allow near 0 bend, The rod would break, Rather than bend.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Problems like this makes my mind go back to other things I have seen or worked on. From Earth Moving Equipment, Mining Equipment, Light Bulb Assembly Machines, To firearms my job was to repair as a police armor.

Here is a couple set ups I have seen on guitars that may be usable, If you do not want to bend that much offset in the rod, Or have to remove a lot of parts from the guitar.

The one on the left is a smaller version of a Carter double up cross rod I have seen. Would only have to be wide enough to get past the round part of the Cross Rod that is a problem.

The one on the right, The longer the bar between the pivot point and the rods the more even the ratio. Just reassigning Rod Positions and Pivot Points on a Reverser for Knee Lever used on some guitars.

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

Great ideas. This gives me a lot to think about. I am worried that rods with too much bend would be unstable. Also, the existing rods to LKR have zero extra length to spare for bending.

My goal is to get the same setup on both of my steels. My MSA doesn't have the 2nd string raise. RKL raises 1+7 to G, a change I use frequently. (When I need a quick G# on the first string, I coordinate a bar slant with the lever) At some point, I may adapt the MSA to raising both strings 1+2. The Derby has 2 long pull rods going to RKL, so in order to swap levers and retain the 3 pulls, I'll need at least one more long pull rod....depending on how I approach this. I'm starting to think that moving the cross rods might be the most solid approach with the fewest new parts. I can do that right now, and leave options open on what to do about string 2 (which does indeed share the same bell crank with string 1) when I acquire an extra rod.
_________________
1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10, 1975 Session 400
1972 Dobro model 66s
Derby SD-10
Tom McDonough

chuck lemasters · From: Jacksonburg, WV

I think my Derby had two bell cranks for that change. I put both changes on a single bell crank and it worked, F#-G# and D#-E…The long pull to G# and the additional resistance with the second string pull made me think twice about the second pull and I ended up eliminating it. Perhaps the first string to G wouldn’t be too bad with the second pull.

Gene Tani · From: Pac NW

Interesting thread, since i need to convert Day pedals to Emmons some day, or let Patrick Timmons do it. How rounded are cross shafts? If perfectly round, you could maybe get (or have machined) bellcranks for round cross shafts. You'd stil have to get the cross shaft off but less work than moving multiple cross shafts around.. If just rounded off, well, I dunno.

my Derby cross shafts are square all the way but here are pix of a Legrande cross shaft which is supposed to be similar, there's no place on the spring loaded bit to get easy purchase, I vaguely remember people saying they filed indents or something for a small flathead driver but you'll have to search. And you could ask the people that have worked on my steels over teh years, Patrick, Jim Palenscar, Lynn Stafford, they'll have ideas I'm sure.

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Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

I play your setup on my Derby and have changed every steel I've had, to that setup. Basically, do what Larry Hobson said. Just mount the bell crank at the end of the cross shaft, being careful to allow enough room for clearance. I must admit, I have a few extra parts to experiment with, but thinking outside the box has worked every time.

Good luck!

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Ah cool!! Necessity is the mother of invention....or something like that.

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