| Author |
Topic: Frets |
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 7 Apr 2023 11:31 am |
|
Aloha, last night a steel player from Nashville came up to check out my steel and tuning.. he did a double take on my fretboard. 2010 Excel, 25 1/2” scale.. the F and C chords on the 1st fret were so sharp I added another fret to tune them the years ago, . everything else is in tune.. My 10th string is a low E so when I lower it to D with F lever (fret 1) and add pedal A (D chord, release A for D7 on the standard 1st fret it’s in tune).. we had a good steel talk, he also plays an Excel.. for me it was a blast as we rarely get any pedal guys visiting here.. 
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
 |
Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
|
Posted 7 Apr 2023 5:48 pm
|
|
| That's a great story and unusual fretboard for sure. Nice to have a fellow steeler share stories. |
|
|
|
Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
|
Posted 13 Apr 2023 4:38 pm
|
|
Larry, I may be dense or something, but I don't get this story at all. What's happening here? Ron
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 13 Apr 2023 5:24 pm Frets
|
|
Hey Ron.. my F on fret #1 has always been quite sharp so I added that 1’2 fret marker where it’s in tune..straight bar no pedals..same with C on the 1st fret.( Also Sharp) with RKL lower and LKR lower = C….. on fret 2 (F#) is in tune where it’s supposed to be ..my other shorter scale Excel is like it’s supposed to be.. 
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 13 Apr 2023 7:22 pm
|
|
I’m with Ron. It is an interesting solution to a problem that makes no sense. It doesn’t seem physically possible for a string to be out of tune at only one fret. It would make much more sense if it was in tune at only one fret. And this is with an Excel?
Last edited by Fred Treece on 13 Apr 2023 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
|
Posted 13 Apr 2023 7:23 pm
|
|
Did you buy the Guitar new or bought the guitar 2nd hand?
Never seen a picture of an Excel Steel with card suites for fret markers. All Excels I have seen pictures of, Had the odd sided triangles for the markers.
That fret board is near a copy of an old Sho-Bud with the card suite fret markers, But all white. |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 14 Apr 2023 10:56 am Frets
|
|
Never made sense to me either. I bought it new in 2010 from Scotty, DE Paul made me the FB exactly the same fret spacing as the stock one.. all the strings are sharp at fret 1..I’ve had several steels for 40 years (Sho-Buds and Excels) but this is the only one with that issue.. 
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 14 Apr 2023 11:22 am Frets
|
|
Stock FB. DePaul FB. Added mystery fret marker… 
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
John Hyland
From:
South Australia
|
Posted 14 Apr 2023 1:28 pm
|
|
| Sounds like the fret board has not allowed for the fact the first fret needs to be shorter to compensate for the small space taken by the nut. Unlike a guitar where the front of the nut is where the string resonates the strings on psg rest in the middle of the nut (and rollers) |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 14 Apr 2023 1:32 pm Frets
|
|
My thoughts also John…my shorter scale Excel is shorter nut to 1st fret.
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 14 Apr 2023 2:23 pm Frets
|
|
Center nut to 1st fret, Excel and Custom ShoBud fret boards 1 7/16”.. center nut to added fret 3/4”..
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 15 Apr 2023 9:33 am
|
|
| Is the 2nd fret (for F#9 no pedals) accurate? If it is, then you have a guitar that pretty much defies the laws of physics. Possibly worth millions to scientific research. |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 15 Apr 2023 12:51 pm Frets
|
|
My 24 1/4” scale Excel also is sharp at the 1st fret but not as severe.. strange but true!! Same strings, Ext E9..
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
John Hyland
From:
South Australia
|
Posted 16 Apr 2023 1:35 pm
|
|
Im starting to think the error could be your bar position. As you play further away from your body (closer to the nut) the parallax error gets greater. That is you think you are barring over the fret but your are actually sharp. This would explain why it is happening on two guitars and is breaking the laws of physics.
I did a dobro workshop where I discussed this and a friend who had been playing for a long time came up and he had never realised thought about this.
Do a test. Place you bar then without moving the hand, then move your head directly over the bar and see where is actually is. |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 16 Apr 2023 2:11 pm Frets
|
|
Tuning to any E9 tuning (Peterson, Newman, B0bs meantone) , the 1st fret is sharp, if I use C6 or a strobe tuner it’s in tune at fret 1.. I have been having no intonation baring my dobros, etc.. (40 years) .. also playing with a piano guy on the band..
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
|
Posted 24 Apr 2023 6:12 pm
|
|
I'm back. My first thought is the Paralux (SP?) issue. I had a student that would always play notes down there, sharp because of the angle one must look at it. I'd say, keep your hand right where it is and stand up directly over your bar and notice where the bar actually is. It was usually about 3/8" too much to the players right. Just a thought. RP
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 24 Apr 2023 6:27 pm Frets
|
|
I stood over fret 1 and measured against the Peterson tuner.. must be B0b’s meantone tuning. F=-12.5. I need the time to try several different tuning setups.. this has been this way for years..
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 24 Apr 2023 9:44 pm
|
|
I can’t explain your dilemma, but I can guarantee that if your guitar is tuned to an “E”, that 1st fret you added is not an “F”. No way, no how. It’s possible your fretboard isn’t properly located, or it’s made for a different scale. But that still would not explain the small distance between open “E” and a barred “F”. As Fred said, that defies the laws of physics.
Is the 12th fret at the exact center of the string? Or maybe, you’re using so much bar pressure at the 1st fret (to prevent rattling), you’re raising the pitch of the strings
Also, you said...
| Quote: |
| Tuning to any E9 tuning (Peterson, Newman, B0bs meantone) , the 1st fret is sharp, if I use C6 or a strobe tuner it’s in tune at fret 1. |
I think it's important to keep in mind exactly why there are so many different tuning-offset charts out there. The reason being that an offset chart made for a certain scale-length or string length will not be accurate on a guitar with a different scale length, or a guitar with different string gauges, or a different type of guitar (keyed vs. keyless), or a guitar with a different amount of "drop", etc., etc. Every variable that is different changes the offsets. A different offset may get you closer to sounding in tune, so most players try everything that comes down the pike in order to get the best compromise and sound in-tune.
That said, I recommend that players spend time developing their "ear", rather than relying on a tuner and someone else's charts. "If it sounds in-tune, it is in-tune."
Nothing else matters. |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 25 Apr 2023 11:23 am Frets.
|
|
Back to the drawing board! Mahalo for all your input..
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Tommy Auldridge
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 25 Apr 2023 12:04 pm 25 1/2 inch scale length
|
|
| One thing that came to my mind, is maybe because it has a 25 1/2 inch scale length. What? Thanks, Tommy..... |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 25 Apr 2023 2:29 pm Frets
|
|
Also thinking that .my 24 1/4” Excel is not that sharp at fret 1…just a little.
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Philip Mitrakos
From:
The Beach South East Florida
|
Posted 26 Apr 2023 11:02 am
|
|
So . . .
Yes , should be the answer to the question ,
Is the 12th fret exactly half way between the top center of the nut rollers and top center of the changer ? ? ? |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 26 Apr 2023 11:32 am Frets
|
|
Hey Phil. YES. both the stock and custom FBs are 25.5”, 12th fret is 12 3/4” from the bridge and from the nut..…Larry
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
|
Posted 29 Apr 2023 6:26 pm Frets
|
|
OK THE LAST SAGA…problem solved by changing the tuning offsets from B0b’s Meantone..(which works on my 24 1/4” Excels) to Peterson’s JST on the 25 1/2” Superb where everything is correct and in tune…currently removing the pinstripe 1/2 fret.. Mahalo for all your input! Now that’s it’s back in tune my band cat returned..Yeowling ‘Back in the Jailhouse Again’ Larry 
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 2 May 2023 8:39 pm
|
|
I am glad the OP could fix the issue... I had prepared a lengthy list of theories to unload here.
Just one thing: Scale length has no influence on tuning methods (JI/ET or MT)... as long evidently the correct/matching scale length fretboard is paired with it.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
