| Author |
Topic: E's lowered on the left or right? Advantages either way? |
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 12:16 pm |
|
I hope this topic hasn't been discussed recently, but here goes.
I have my sho-bud D10 with E's lowered on the left. I have a williams with the E's lowered on the right. To me, having the e's on the right side makes much more sense and is far easier to do when I'm engaging both AB and E's lowered. Having it all loaded on one leg seems impractical. That said, I practice both ways.
But what are some of the advantages disadvantages of having E's lowered being on the left or right leg? |
|
|
 |
scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 12:23 pm
|
|
the most important thing is to have them lower and raise on the same knee, I believe the left knee is most common. it's where I've always had them, lowering on LKR and raising on LKL. this configuration makes sense, since the raise is most often used in conjunction with the A pedal and the lower with the B pedal (not the case on a Day setup  )
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
|
|
|
Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 12:34 pm
|
|
I have had guitars with them in several locations but strongly prefer LKL E>F and LKR E>D#
Besides the ease of coordinating with A and B pedals I can combine the LKR and RKL G#>F# without sending the guitar sideways. |
|
|
|
Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 12:56 pm
|
|
There are some very cool pedal/KL combinations that you physically can't do if you have your E's on your right leg.
The changes on your right leg (if you have a basic "Emmons" setup) are usually 1st string up a whole/2nd string up a half, 6th either down a whole or 7th up a whole... 2nd string down a whole with a feel stop & 9th down a half.
Those changes on the right leg can be used with the pedals, as well as a vertical lowering 6 (and sometimes 10) a half, to do some cool stuff that you just can't get to - or do smoothly - if they're all on your left leg.
JMHO...and I'm sticking to it. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 2:21 pm
|
|
This was discussed recently, but particularly in the context of universal E9/B6 here - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=389018
If you go back to the thread from 2004 that I linked there, I think Buddy and Paul completely laid bare the advantages and disadvantages of both Es on same knee vs. on split knees. OK, here's that link - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=29594 - read the whole thread.
As I said on the thread from last month (and in many other places), I'm firmly in the split-knees (E=>F on LKL, E=>Eb on RKL) camp, either for universal or standard E9. That was after trying a bunch of different permutations of lever locations.
This general topic has been discussed many, many times over the nearly 20 years I've been here. |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 3:56 pm
|
|
| Holy Moly Dave, that discussion between Paul Franklin and Buddy Emmons was epic. Interestingly they didn't agree, with Buddy falling on the same knee configuration and Franklin splitting them. Thanks for pointing this out. |
|
|
|
Richard Alderson
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 6:25 pm One more reason
|
|
Here's one reason for having them on the left side. They are basic changes used frequently in combination with just about everything imaginable. They are frequently engaged. If they are on the left side, then those frequent movements do not interfere with operation of the volume pedal as much as they would on the right side.
_________________
Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500. |
|
|
|
Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 7:06 pm
|
|
Well im just a weekend dive bar hack,but mine are split.I play Day set up and thats just how i learned.I ordered my Mullen this way.I almost ordered them on the same knee but ended up keeping it the same as my Fenders.
I like being able to seamlessly roll off the F lever with A pedal down,while engaging the E lever.
I figure guys with them on the same knee have no trouble doing it as well.
I did have to work on volume pedal control ALOT though, early on,as my foot would rock back sometimes when hitting the E lever and lose volume.I got it figured out though.
I would have to have both my guitars the same. |
|
|
|
Kristen Bruno
From:
Orlando, Florida, USA
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 7:46 pm
|
|
On 10 string E9.
LKL to raise
LKR to lower
Thats what I learned.
On 12 string Universal
LKL to raise
RKR to lower
_________________
"Technology has given us the ability to repeat all the mistakes we have learned from history, but much faster, deadlier and with much greater accuracy" - KAB |
|
|
|
Kenny Davis
From:
Great State of Oklahoma
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 9:06 pm
|
|
This is my post from a few months ago. I just re-read the old post with Buddy & Paul and saw where Buddy suggested moving the knee levers closer or moving his thigh forward to shorten the distance. I don't think that would work for me!
| Kenny Davis wrote: |
Let me explain my comment to b0b's comment:
My E's set-up is the same as it was when I got my guitar in the '70's...Lower my E's with RKL. I play Emmons set-up. On occasion, I will lower the E's from a raised position and back "simultaneously." For example, ending a slow song in "D" on the first fret[5-6-8]I will release the raise(F#) while beginning to lower to E and then raise back to the F# while the rest of the band is sustaining D. Or, 3rd tone to the 2nd and back to the 3rd.
Using the same leg L-R-L would not allow a seamless transition as I require for that lick. Lee Baucum mentions it being more "fluid" in an earlier post. It also allows me to keep the A pedal depressed, and not depressing the B pedal while lowering the E's.
For me, it would be very difficult to switch any of my changes at this stage. "Can't teach an old dog new tricks" fits me perfectly. A few years ago Byron Berline called me and asked me to look at a guitar he was going to sell and maybe make a short video demo. I got there and it was a Day set-up. I told him I would embarrass us both if I tried to play it with any skill.  |
_________________
Best lyric in a country song: "...One more, Moon..." |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 10:52 pm Re: One more reason
|
|
| Richard Alderson wrote: |
| Here's one reason for having them on the left side. They are basic changes used frequently in combination with just about everything imaginable. They are frequently engaged. If they are on the left side, then those frequent movements do not interfere with operation of the volume pedal as much as they would on the right side. |
I think everyone should figure out what works best for themselves.
With that said - it is precisely because I use the E=>Eb lever constantly - by itself and with the pedals and other levers - that I prefer it on the right knee, and separate from the E=>F lever. I put E=>F on LKL, B=>Bb on LKV, and G#=>F# on LKR, and I constantly use E=>Eb with all of these. Aside from the difficulty in smoothly making the E=>F sweep down to E=>Eb full-tone lower with the Es on the same knee, I also found it awkward to use the E=>Eb on LKR and B=>Bb on LKV together. On every steel I own except one, there are more levers on the left knee than the right knee. That is a significant combinatorial fact for me. On the E9 neck, I use E=>Eb with every one of the levers and both the A and B pedal. So I personally find it more useful and comfortable to have the lynchpin lever - E=>Eb - on a separate knee.
Add to that the fairly obvious advantage on universal of being able to hold in the E=>Eb lever with the right knee while pedaling the right-most levers on the Bb side with the left foot makes the split knee configuration a no-brainer for me.
Yes, using the right knee levers and the volume pedal together does take some getting used to. But one must learn to deal with that if one is going to use the right levers at all, regardless of how the guitar is set up.
Seriously - I'm really not trying to convince anybody that they should do it one way or the other. There are advantages and disadvantages to every single aspect of how the pedals and levers of a pedal steel are set up. I think it comes down to this - what is sum composite utility of these various tradeoffs to a particular player. Players are different - physically, mentally, the specifics of the music they want to play, and more. So I see no reason to think everybody should set up their guitars the same way. I know there are many who feel that there should be 'standardization' in how E9 pedal steels are set up. I disagree. And I'm pretty confident that type of unanimous agreement will never happen. |
|
|
|
Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
|
Posted 13 Mar 2023 11:46 pm
|
|
Lowering 2&9 to C# at the same time E's are raised or lowered is a combination I like sooo much that it sets the preference for where those raise/lowers needs to be located.
LKL = both E's to F
LKR = both E's to Eb
RKL = 2&9 D#-D-C# & D-C#
RKR = 1&7 F#-G#
My E's to Eb is split tuned w the C pedal so I have an F note at the 4th string w LKR and C pedal
I totally understand the reason for a smooth full step up/down on the E strings by having E's lower/raises on opposite knees. I just get the same change a slightly different way.
B.Erlandsen
Remington S10LG 3+4
JCH D10 8+8
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 14 Mar 2023 1:11 am
|
|
My main reason for splitting the Es is to be able to drop the 3rd smoothly in the AF position, as in AB or pedals up (lowering 6). Some claim they can do this on the same knee, but I dont see how they avoid a notch in the middle.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 14 Mar 2023 5:13 am Re: One more reason
|
|
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
I think everyone should figure out what works best for themselves.
|
And as Dave says, that's it in a nutshell . Whats important is to have both the raise and lower of the E's on the guitar. Where they are located is more likely to be based on your personal style, how you play what you play etc...
If we took a poll (and probably have) it would probably be 60% have both E's on the left leg and 40% split, left and right. The most important thing is to know WHY you have them on the left leg or why you prefer the split . Don't do either because someone says one is better than the other.
I have them both on the left leg but have had them split. I couldn't find a good reason to keep them split, but certainly others have a very good reason, just not me. For my style of playing and how I execute them, having them both on the left leg just seems natural, which means I know why I have them both on the left leg.
Playing this dang instrument is about not exerting extra energy or making physical moves that do not feel natural. Our physical energy should flow with the music. We should not try to execute a "physical" movement which feels odd to us just so we can play a kool phrase.
Find your own way, practice and become comfy " in your own skin" . execute your changes in auto pilot, don't over think it.
Only you can determine any advantages, one way or the other.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
chuck lemasters
From:
Jacksonburg, WV
|
Posted 14 Mar 2023 5:43 am
|
|
| Split knees because my first four lever guitar came that way….why change? If the two different camps have Buddy and Paul as their heads, the advantages of one over the other must be miniscule. To each his own.. |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 14 Mar 2023 6:24 am
|
|
For some, splitting the raise and lower between two sides gives them options. To me, it seems obvious that, as I'm never going to use both simultaneously, using two knees robs me of combinations.
As for making the change smoothly, I find I can do it seamlessly. Sometimes, I'll deliberately 'sound' the three notes:
'Ain't Misbehaving':
"...just me and my ra-di-o..."
In G, say: Pedals down (strings 8,7,6,4), 6th fret, raise 4/8, release, lower 4/8: Cmin(ma7), Cmin7, Cmin6.
That sounds good when I allow the three different notes to sound. But I can also pass through all three notes (B, A#,A) as a fast gliss.
I do have those two KLs (LKR/LKL) tailored to fit my leg closely which helps.. I'm just accustomed to it, I suppose, just as those who began with the Sho-Bud configuration wouldn't want to change now.
In my view, it always comes down to one's own musical priorities. Like Dave, I wouldn't want to see rigid standardization of either neck.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Larry Ball
From:
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
|
Posted 14 Mar 2023 7:29 am
|
|
Reading all the above preferences and archive posts on levers, pedals, all the various changes that are available. Someone finally said they should standardize the E9th. So if that was the case “We would all be driving Chev’s”.
My two cents..
_________________
Mullen SD10, Sho~Bud SD10 LDG, Show-Pro SD10 LDG, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100 MK11, Telonic's F100 Multi-Taper Super Pro V/P, |
|
|
|
Kenny Davis
From:
Great State of Oklahoma
|
Posted 14 Mar 2023 8:14 am
|
|
Not me 😉
_________________
Best lyric in a country song: "...One more, Moon..." |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 14 Mar 2023 9:42 am
|
|
| Tony Prior wrote: |
| The most important thing is to know WHY you have them on the left leg or why you prefer the split . Don't do either because someone says one is better than the other. |
Yes, that was my point, but stated in a different and very useful way. And I guess there are two ways to handle that:
1. Think it through carefully. It is possible to think this through by mapping out all the possible pedal/lever and lever/lever combinations for each approach (and there are quite a lot of possible combinations of lever locations), and count the number of useful combinations of levers and pedals.
2. Try the different possibilities on an actual guitar. This, of course, requires having a guitar to experiment on.
I was lucky to have a nice, easy-to-work-on BMI S10. I tore that thing down, cleaned it up, and then tried every possible ordering of levers that made sense. I even tried (briefly) a Day setup, which I quickly discarded - it was obvious that it wasn't right for me - my left ankle just favors Emmons. First time I ever tore down a pedal steel, but I learned a helluavlot from that exercise, about both the utility of various pedal/lever locations and the mechanics of a pedal steel.
Of course, I went through the complete combinatorial analysis on paper first. I wish I still had the papers - I kept them in a notebook, but they must have gotten tossed at some point. In the end, however, only tearing down that BMI and trying every reasonable combination truly convinced me what was best for me. Theory is great, but every theory must be confirmed (or denied) by a properly planned and executed experiment. This whole process took several months - I think it's important to give each possibility a fair tryout. Ergo, having a spare steel to experiment on is kind of important.
I started playing with both Es on the left knee, and combinatorially, it seemed optimal. So I was actually a bit startled to find that, when I actually tried the various approaches, the split knee approach yielded more useful combinations for me, and felt much more natural to me. Of course, YMMV. |
|
|
|
John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
|
Posted 14 Mar 2023 9:51 am
|
|
| Which is best mechanically speaking ? (I hope this is not a stupid question) Thanks. |
|
|
|
Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
|
Posted 15 Mar 2023 8:33 am
|
|
Started out with E's on my left knee, then after a couple months of doing arrangements decided to split them and have never gone back.
I made LKR an unusual change, lowering strings 3, 6 & 11 a half step so I have a minor triad at the root bar position. Being able to pick out a melody at the bar position minor is perfect for the kind of arrangements I do. Sometimes I'll still need to get the minor triad with A or D (and on rare occasion B+C) to find the right melody notes over a minor chord but the majority of the time LKR works best for me. It's the one "non standard" change I have on the basic 3x5 that I couldn't live without
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 15 Mar 2023 8:55 am
|
|
Dennis:
It's not quite the same, but my pedal 4 on my D10 lowers 3,6 and 9 on E9. It gives me a m7b5 or a 9th chord (A9 at zero fret).
P4 also lowers 5 and raises 10 on C6 so it's a bit stiff.
When I get my D13th 12 string, I'll have the same change with my LKV and P5. Being D13th, pedal 5 will give me an E9.
How stiff is that LKR of yours?
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
|
Posted 15 Mar 2023 9:57 am
|
|
Hi Roger,
not stiff at all, though I should mention I tune down to extended D9 so that might make a difference. Anyway, I rodded it to the bellcrank/changer position combos that provide the lightest touch. In fact my LKL (F) lever only raises 2 strings and is a tiny bit tighter than LKR dropping 3 strings! It also has a long throw so I can get this really nice slow squeeze down from the major triad to the minor. That's another reason I prefer to get that root position minor 3rd on strings 3,6,11 by dropping the major 3rd rather than raising the 2nd on strings 1&7. It just feels better to me to drop down to the m3 on the 8-6-5-4-3 grip rather raise up into it changing the grip to 8-7-5-4-1.
I guess what I really did was replace the somewhat standard "G" knee with my minor 3rd drop knee
Also, with the minor 3rd on LKR I can bring in the string 2 half stop on RKR and get a really sweet m7 chord at the root position or squeeze the full stop on string 2 and drop to a m6 
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
|
|
|
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
|
Posted 17 Mar 2023 1:21 am
|
|
I play a universal. I'm with Dave Grafe:
strongly prefer LKL E>F and LKR E>D# |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2023 8:30 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| I know there are many who feel that there should be 'standardization' in how E9 pedal steels are set up. |
I felt that way when I first started playing 6 years ago, but I don’t now.
Maybe it is a beginner thing, before the body mechanics have developed. You just want to be able to ask players how they make music, not how they tune the frigging thing. Now, I understand the two are intertwined. |
|
|
|
