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Topic: Interesting tuning problem. |
Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2023 4:48 pm |
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I haved tuned my steel to the E9 tuning using the Peterson Strobostomp. Perfect open tuning and sound. All string are right on the mark.
But when I go up past the 12 fret I notice some degredation of the tuning. So I rechecked the open tuning. Perfect.
Then I moved the bar to the 12 fret and moved the bar around till I measured a perfect tuning on the E note with the strobostomp at the 12 fret.
Now heres the catch. The rest of my strings are either sharp or flat acording to the strobostomp. When I tune to straight 440 the tuning is right on at the open location and the 12 fret. Whats going on ?????? |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2023 7:45 pm
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I'm thinking you're never going to see it perfect on the tuner with the bar down. The more toward the middle of the fretboard, the more deflection in the strings. After tuning open, put the bar on the eighth fret and see if it's acceptable to your ears. If it sounds out noticeably there, it is possible you have a bad string in the mix, but I have only seen that a couple of times over the years.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 8 Mar 2023 7:46 pm
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| I believe that is totally normal! Strngs are not true, the strings are the same Length while most electric guitar bridges are individually adjusted. .45 years of playing, I've never found it to play across multiple strings in tune over the octave. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Mar 2023 8:23 pm Re: Interesting tuning problem.
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| Greg Lambert wrote: |
I haved tuned my steel to the E9 tuning using the Peterson Strobostomp. Perfect open tuning and sound. All string are right on the mark.
But when I go up past the 12 fret I notice some degredation of the tuning. So I rechecked the open tuning. Perfect.
Then I moved the bar to the 12 fret and moved the bar around till I measured a perfect tuning on the E note with the strobostomp at the 12 fret.
Now heres the catch. The rest of my strings are either sharp or flat acording to the strobostomp. When I tune to straight 440 the tuning is right on at the open location and the 12 fret. Whats going on ?????? |
I’ll make this short and sweet:
Tuners only work on open strings!
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2023 7:11 am Re: Interesting tuning problem.
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Greg Lambert wrote: |
I haved tuned my steel to the E9 tuning using the Peterson Strobostomp. Perfect open tuning and sound. All string are right on the mark.
But when I go up past the 12 fret I notice some degredation of the tuning. So I rechecked the open tuning. Perfect.
Then I moved the bar to the 12 fret and moved the bar around till I measured a perfect tuning on the E note with the strobostomp at the 12 fret.
Now heres the catch. The rest of my strings are either sharp or flat acording to the strobostomp. When I tune to straight 440 the tuning is right on at the open location and the 12 fret. Whats going on ?????? |
I’ll make this short and sweet:
Tuners only work on open strings!
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then why does it tune perfectly at the 12th fret when tuned straight 440 at the open fret ? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Mar 2023 1:13 pm
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| Greg Lambert wrote: |
...then why does it tune perfectly at the 12th fret when tuned straight 440 at the open fret ? |
But Greg, you're the one that said everything but the "E" note is out at the 12th fret?
| Greg Lambert wrote: |
| Then I moved the bar to the 12 fret and moved the bar around till I measured a perfect tuning on the E note with the strobostomp at the 12 fret...The rest of my strings are either sharp or flat acording to the strobostomp. When I tune to straight 440 the tuning is right on at the open location and the 12 fret. |
Greg, once the bar hits the strings, all bets are off. (That's probably why nobody tunes their guitar with the bar on the strings using a tuner; there are just too many variables.) And if you're using a tuner and tuning to a set of presets that someone else selected using a different guitar, a different pedal setup, a different set of string gauges, and possibly even a different scale length, why on earth would you expect everything to be "dead-on" all up and down the neck?
Ain't gonna happen.  |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 9:37 am
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If I understand the OP correctly, the tuning in question is a preset with offsets that are sharp for some strings and flat for others. The E strings probably register the most sharp to “440” and the G# strings will be the most flat. So at fret 12, every other string should be flat to the E strings - some not so much as others.
Tuning every open string straight up 440 and having them register the same at fret 12 is no surprise.
In fact, if the strings all registered straight 440 at fret 12 WITH the Strobo preset, THEN I would say you have a tuning problem. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 9:51 am
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When you get it figured out, let the rest of the stringed musical instrument world know how you fixed it, and then enjoy your multi billion dollar retirement after you sell your invention...
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 12:05 pm
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Since I dont know exactly how the strobostomb preset measures the offset I can only speculate......
If the tuner expect to see a 2hz offset from 440 at open strings, then that 2 hz difference would be 4hz at the 12th fret. The tuner would then indicate the note at the 12th fret to be 2hz sharp.
Tuning ET all notes at at 12th fret would just be a double digit with no offset so yes those would be expected to be "in tune"
It is only speculations tho.
If it sounds "in tune" at the 12th fret and open strings then I wouldnt worry a second.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 1:20 pm
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Good observations, Bengt! It’s a complicated subject, to be sure.
Another thing we must think about (if we really want to get technical) is bar deflection whenever we bar the strings. Ideally, the bar pressure would be the same across the strings. But because the strings are different gauges, an equal amount of deflection due to the bar would not translate to a precisely equal amount of stretching (or tuning raise). Heavier strings require less stretch for a given change, and lighter ones require more. Therefore, even more variables are introduced whenever the bar is introduced. There’s also a slight scale variation at the nut due to the arch when heavier strings are pulled over it (which disappears when the bar used.) Like I said, lot of variables if you want to get technical, but the only thing that’s important is the sound. Digital tuners will show differences that don’t really matter when it comes to playing, and worrying about those differences is counterproductive.
Tune the opens and pedals with a tuner…if you must. Then unhook the tuner and put it away. |
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Michael Hill
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 1:42 pm
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| Maybe you're due for a fresh set of strings? |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 1:59 pm
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| Bengt Erlandsen wrote: |
Since I dont know exactly how the strobostomb preset measures the offset I can only speculate......
If the tuner expect to see a 2hz offset from 440 at open strings, then that 2 hz difference would be 4hz at the 12th fret. The tuner would then indicate the note at the 12th fret to be 2hz sharp.
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Now there’s a pretty good argument for tuning to cents instead of hertz. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 4:50 pm
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I think Donny's right.I was told more than once that tuning to mathematical exactitude makes things sound a little wonky, which is why piano tuners tune things a little off pitch. Certainly the Newman tuning chart I use doesn't have anything at 440.Add to that whatever the bar does to push strings down as well as the inherent in-exactness of bar placement(unless you're BE) and it's all an ongoing kludge.
But if you're on your intuitive toes with a good bar you can make it sound good enough to draw smiles, dancers, and repeat gigs.  |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 7:58 pm
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That is the main reason for vibrato being used on the bar, Those little moves blend the small sound changes together. To the human ear it then sounds in tune.
Every instructor has a section on Vibrato with the bar, And how to use it while playing. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 11 Mar 2023 9:31 pm
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Bengt and Donny have said most of what I would have said on the matter, but I nevertheless like to add some of my own observations.
1: On E9 I only tune my open upper "A" (B-pedal down) with an electronic tuner or a tuningfork. All other strings/notes I tune by ear, first across all strings with bar on 3d and 5th fret, and then checked for open and 12th fret.
Tuning all strings by el-tuner without the bar, takes too long and always end in needing lots of after-trimming. Have never managed to program a usable tuning with all pedal/lever combos out of my "by ear" procedure that will suit all my PSGs, so I keep doing it by ear whenever possible.
2: My best, or rather easiest tuned, PSG, have an angled bridge/changer with lowest strings 3mm longer than the highest. That slight angle compensates to quite a degree for how thick and thin strings vibrate differently off the bridge, and it isn't angled so much that it upset the changer.
3: I "stretch" the tuning while playing - copying more or less how a grand piano is stretch-tuned. No use tuning a PSG that way in open, so constantly offsetting the bar slightly up the neck depending on the dominating note, is what makes it sound right to our ears.
4: I do not "mask" with vibrato, as that would mask the notes for me too and make it harder for me to play in tune with others … and that is what really matters. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Mar 2023 7:12 am
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| Quote: |
| I haved tuned my steel to the E9 tuning using the Peterson Strobostomp. Perfect open tuning and sound. All string are right on the mark. |
Which tuning mode are you using? If it's anything besides equal temperament, you should not expect pitches to read correctly on the tuner except open strings and octaves, even if you place your bar perfectly straight at the correct location above the fret. That is by design for anything but a true equal temperament tuning.
You say in one place that you tune "straight up 440", which is generally considered to be "tuned to standard equal temperament". That, IMO, conflicts with "perfect open tuning and sound". With equal temperament, you should be hearing beats between intervals - the beats on 3rds should be especially noticable.
If you're using the SE9 setting, which is specifically intended for E9 pedal steel - that is something fairly close to justly intonated. That is a set of pitch standards that is designed to make your open tuning sound sweet - in other words, you should be hearing significantly less beats than equal temperament. It offsets the open tuning equal temperament frequencies to give that sound.
The distance between frets are designed to yield correct equal temperament intervals as you move up the neck. So if you tune the open strings to anything but equal temperament, you should expect, by design, for the tuner to tell you you're off. There's nothing wrong with this, that is simply the physics/mathematics of an ideal vibrating string tuned to an equal temperament scale.
So - the fact that you're stating that the sound is perfect on the open strings, reads correctly at the octave, and is off at all other frets, tells me that you are not tuning to equal temperament, i.e., what most people call "straight up 440".
Even tuned to equal temperament, I think it is asking too much to expect that everything is perfectly in-tune all the way up the neck because, in fact, real strings do not fit the "ideal string" model perfectly. Recall that on a standard (Spanish) guitar with steel strings, a perfectly equal temperament tuned guitar requires varying amounts of compensation at the bridge to play in-tune at the 12th fret octave. This accounts for multiple factors - especially the fact that the string stiffness near the takeoff points at both nut and bridge is higher. On a Spanish guitar, a fretted string is also deflected a significant amount and thus changes the length of the string - that required compensation varies a bit, depending on what fret you're at. And the effect of higher string stiffness near the bridge also varies, depending on the string gauge/tension and what position you're fretting or setting the bar at. On a Spanish guitar, even tuned equal temperament, you're never perfectly at equal temperament except open and at the 12th fret. And none of this considers bar placement errors on a steel guitar.
The goal should be to play so it sounds in tune at all positions, not to have the tuner say it's correct. It doesn't matter whether the tuner says it's correct, as long as it sounds good.
One other thing - you should expect the impact of non-idealities in the physical string to get more and more significant as you move up the neck, especially beyond the 12th fret as you're approaching the bridge. The explanation is simple - the vibrating string length is getting shorter and shorter, and thus the ratio of the length of the string that is vibrating close to the ideal string model vs. the section near the bridge where the stiffness increases and becomes less ideal gets smaller and smaller. Thus the need for compensation increases as you move up closer and closer to the bridge. In playing steel, it is always critical use your ears to place the bar so it sounds good - but this becomes even more and more critical as you go up the neck towards the bridge.
Using a tuner to decide where to set your bar is not a good idea. It has to be done by ear, IMO. So like many others, I decided a long time ago that if I couldn't learn to tune a steel guitar by ear, after setting the root strings, so that it sounds in tune with itself, there would be no way I could possibly ever learn to play it in tune. I use a tuner across the strings only when I am absolutely forced to because someone in charge insists on absolute silence, which is very infrequently to never. |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2023 4:22 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Greg Lambert wrote: |
...then why does it tune perfectly at the 12th fret when tuned straight 440 at the open fret ? |
But Greg, you're the one that said everything but the "E" note is out at the 12th fret?
| Greg Lambert wrote: |
| Then I moved the bar to the 12 fret and moved the bar around till I measured a perfect tuning on the E note with the strobostomp at the 12 fret...The rest of my strings are either sharp or flat acording to the strobostomp. When I tune to straight 440 the tuning is right on at the open location and the 12 fret. |
Greg, once the bar hits the strings, all bets are off. (That's probably why nobody tunes their guitar with the bar on the strings using a tuner; there are just too many variables.) And if you're using a tuner and tuning to a set of presets that someone else selected using a different guitar, a different pedal setup, a different set of string gauges, and possibly even a different scale length, why on earth would you expect everything to be "dead-on" all up and down the neck?
Ain't gonna happen. |
Donnie , I said when tuned to the sweetened E9th everything at the 12th fret is either sharp or flat when the E's are zero'd. However when tuned to 440 straight up then everything is right on at the 12 fret. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 13 Mar 2023 7:15 am Re: Interesting tuning problem.
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| Greg Lambert wrote: |
I haved tuned my steel to the E9 tuning using the Peterson Strobostomp. Perfect open tuning and sound. All string are right on the mark.
But when I go up past the 12 fret I notice some degredation of the tuning. So I rechecked the open tuning. Perfect.
Then I moved the bar to the 12 fret and moved the bar around till I measured a perfect tuning on the E note with the strobostomp at the 12 fret.
Now heres the catch. The rest of my strings are either sharp or flat acording to the strobostomp. When I tune to straight 440 the tuning is right on at the open location and the 12 fret. Whats going on ?????? |
I got that happening once to me to the point I was pulling my hair out, bought a tip-micrometer, measured paralellisms and spend time laying under my new PSG just looking for an answer.
Yes, intonation issues are “normal”. Our bar presure -and we’re supposed to concentrate on our tip- affects each string differently.
Pressure also rolls strings down over the changer fingers -effectively shortening the remaining ringing string length- while also raising tension.
I knew that and learned to live with it, but that one time, it was so bad, I could not bare playing it.
And then, it dawned on me that I had bit had that problem with that guitar until I had changed all strings. So, I checked string pairs (on C6th Perfect 4ths & 5ths occuring every other string) and found ONE wound string which was messing the whole tuning up. Replaced it at back into the game!
While core wires nowadays are of fairly constant diameter, however winding wires on wound strings can stretch out during the winding process and/or not be unequally snug together resulting in strings which loose their intonation over their scale length.
I’v faced this now 3 times over the past 3 years.
… JD
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2023 2:44 pm
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| Thanks guys I appreciate the help.. |
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Johnny Baker
From:
Southport, Fla
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Posted 21 Mar 2023 6:38 pm Re: Interesting tuning problem.
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| Greg Lambert wrote: |
I haved tuned my steel to the E9 tuning using the Peterson Strobostomp. Perfect open tuning and sound. All string are right on the mark.
But when I go up past the 12 fret I notice some degredation of the tuning. So I rechecked the open tuning. Perfect. Then I moved the bar to the 12 fret and moved the bar around till I measured a perfect tuning on the E note with the strobostomp at the 12 fret. Now here's the catch. The rest of my strings are either sharp or flat acording to the strobostomp. When I tune to straight 440 the tuning is right on at the open location and the 12 fret. Whats going on ?????? |
I do not tune any of my open, pedal, or knee lever strings to straight 440, except those that are tuned to it. If it's 439.5 open I will tune it to 439, if it's 438.5, I will tune it to 438, if it's 436.5 I will tune it to 436 and so forth. It does give it a slightly different sound but, it has helped me with the issue you are describing. It may help you but then again, it may not.
_________________
I am currently running a Simmons SD10, Peavey Nashville 400 that's packing a 15" BW, Peavey Delta Fex effects processor, and a Match Box. Best rig I've ever run and the sound is truly incredible. |
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