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Topic: Beginner question on MSA classic, lever position |
David Lee Todd
From:
NW Indy, Indiana, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2023 8:55 am |
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I bought an MSA classic and the LKL is positioned too far to the right, for me to get my foot in a good position to use the A B & C pedals correctly. Is there such a thing as a knee lever extension for this? (To move the LKL to the left about 3”) ? Anyone else have this experience? Know what I mean?
I’ve only started pedal steel last year. Love it.
Thank you
Dave |
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Wayne Brown
From:
Bassano, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 25 Feb 2023 9:57 am steel guitar
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your sitting in the center of the guitar... your body should be to the right around the 19th to the 21 fret so your left leg is straight in line with the knee levers and the ABC pedals
wayne
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Owner Out West Music,Seats,Parts and accessories
www.outwestcountry.ca |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 25 Feb 2023 10:58 am
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You should post some pics of the guitar. Is it a D10, or an S10 with just the three pedals? On most steels, both LKL and the 2nd (B) pedal are roughly in line with the nut. For whatever reason, '70s MSAs I've seen the left knee levers tend to be positioned farther to the right with LKL the cross shaft placed to the right of the C pedal cross shaft. This requires a more extreme left leg angle to play the A&B pedals comfortably.
If this is the case on your guitar you could either shift the knee levers one space to the left, or shift the pedals one space to the right. I believe a lot of folks have done this over the past 40-50 years. If you shift the levers you'll need some new longer pull rods. You'll probably have to move the RKR cross shaft one space to the left also as it is often in the space you'll want to use between the 2nd & 3rd pedals (activated by a jumper rod from the remote lever). If your guitar is a D10, moving the pedals is a big job. If it's an S10 this is the easiest approach, you'll only need to move the 1st pedal cross shaft from the 1st to the 4th position. You can leave the 2nd and 3rd pedals in place and just relocate and reassign the bell cranks and rods for their new functions. To relocate the shafts you have to remove the rear aluminum apron piece. It's not overly complicated but will take a little time and patience. Take lots of notes and pictures before you begin so that you are sure to get all the rods back in the same holes/positions for their relative functions.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Bob Shilling
From:
Berkeley, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2023 11:32 am
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On my MSA, S10 Classic, the LKL(E to F raise) is lined up with the B pedal at about the second fret. With my foot on the A&B pedals, my lower leg is angled slightly from the knee to the foot. This works fine for me. This also works well for the A-pedal/F-lever combination.
If this isn't working for you, perhaps you could fabricate a lever that curves further to the left, rather than trying to relocate the cross shaft - which would be a major operation.
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Bob Shilling, Berkeley, CA--MSA S10, "Classic" |
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Tom Sosbe
From:
Rushville,In
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Posted 25 Feb 2023 12:51 pm
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| Dave sent you a P.m. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2023 10:58 pm
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| If the guitar is an MSA Classic S10. What pedal bracket is the 1st pedal on. The first pedal on left (A pedal Emmons, C pedal Day) was on about the 3rd right pedal bracket of the S10 I once owned. |
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David Lee Todd
From:
NW Indy, Indiana, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2023 12:32 am
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
You should post some pics of the guitar. Is it a D10, or an S10 with just the three pedals? On most steels, both LKL and the 2nd (B) pedal are roughly in line with the nut. For whatever reason, '70s MSAs I've seen the left knee levers tend to be positioned farther to the right with LKL the cross shaft placed to the right of the C pedal cross shaft. This requires a more extreme left leg angle to play the A&B pedals comfortably.
If this is the case on your guitar you could either shift the knee levers one space to the left, or shift the pedals one space to the right. I believe a lot of folks have done this over the past 40-50 years. If you shift the levers you'll need some new longer pull rods. You'll probably have to move the RKR cross shaft one space to the left also as it is often in the space you'll want to use between the 2nd & 3rd pedals (activated by a jumper rod from the remote lever). If your guitar is a D10, moving the pedals is a big job. If it's an S10 this is the easiest approach, you'll only need to move the 1st pedal cross shaft from the 1st to the 4th position. You can leave the 2nd and 3rd pedals in place and just relocate and reassign the bell cranks and rods for their new functions. To relocate the shafts you have to remove the rear aluminum apron piece. It's not overly complicated but will take a little time and patience. Take lots of notes and pictures before you begin so that you are sure to get all the rods back in the same holes/positions for their relative functions. |
Thanks everyone for your helpful replies!
Ian
It is a D10 Supersustain 8 + 5, and like you say, it is one with the LKL positioned a Lot farther right than on my Emmons or my Williams. Appears The process of swapping that entire lever operation over could be a futile undertaking.
And yes,
Fabrication of a modified lever arm extension appears the best solution.
Wondered if there is such an animal already made for this ?
Or, I suppose it could be done with some aluminum bar stock if I could find some near correct thickness etc.
I can take some pics to post. I don’t know how old this MSA is but it’s Beautiful and I’d like to make it easier/possible to use. |
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David Wright
From:
Pilot Point ,Tx USA.
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Posted 26 Feb 2023 4:17 am
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| Get me the serial number, can tell ya its age |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 26 Feb 2023 12:52 pm
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| David Lee Todd wrote: |
| ...The process of swapping that entire lever operation over could be a futile undertaking... |
Moving the knee lever cross shafts would not be a quick and simple operation, but it's definitely not a futile one. If you're handy and not intimidated by the mechanics of the PSG it's quite doable and would be the best overall solution. If it's an SS it probably has the wood rear apron with the 'L' rails mounting the shafts on the back. You'll likely have to unscrew a couple of adjacent sections to create the necessary space to remove and relocate one or more shafts. One thing to check and consider is, if the LKR cross shaft is already in the position where you would like your LKL to be (presumably between B & C pedals), you could use it for for your LKL, then you would only have to relocate one cross shaft for the LKR, and the LKR lever itself. Relocate the LKR bracket to a comfortable location and relocate the other cross shaft to the space between A & B pedals or, since the LKR shaft is offset from the actual lever with a jumper rod, that shaft can go pretty much anywhere it will fit. Kind of guessing here though without knowing exactly how your guitar is set up currently, can you post a pic of your undercarriage?
An offset lever is also worth a try, it would be simpler but that will have its challenges too. The lever would need to be shaped such that the offset portion is above where it contacts your leg, but low enough that it doesn't collide with other stuff when engaged. That's probably not a big deal but another possible issue to consider is will an offset lever fold down flat enough for transporting in the case with out having to remove it each time. You can just mock up a template with a piece of cardboard or something to work that out. Presumably you would need to make one for both LK levers to maintain the correct spacing between them, or you would need to relocate the LKR bracket. The geometry and feel might be awkward with the plane of the lever offset 2-1/2" - 3" from the fulcrum. One way to find out! Good luck.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Feb 2023 4:39 pm
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Many players, especially those using the Emmons setup on the old MSA double-neck guitars, complain about the left lever positions. (It's not as bad with the Day setup because the A pedal is more to the right). But here's a trick I used on my own guitar: The round crossrods used on the old MSA guitars have a very big advantage, in that you can mount your knee lever bracket on any crossrod and have it pivot freely on that rod, and then just run a short "slave pullrod" from that bracket to the crossrod that you want to actuate. This can be done with the pullers that are already there, or you can add a dedicated puller to the crossrod you want to activate (to give you more flexibility in timing and effort).
Of course, this isn't a real simple job, but it's easily accomplished by anyone with a modicum of skills, and who's used to working on steels and fabricating/modifying parts.
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 26 Feb 2023 5:17 pm
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As a quick fix, have you tried adjusting the lever so that rather than hanging straight down, it angles a bit to the left? It's an easy adjustment, and might buy you a little more space on the left. That's how mine (MSA Vintage XL) is adjusted.
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1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10, 1975 Session 400
1972 Dobro model 66s
Derby SD-10
Tom McDonough |
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David Lee Todd
From:
NW Indy, Indiana, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 5:51 am Angling and shifting fwd
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Ian, Donny, Tommy … et al
Thank you for even more great advice (and the date of Mfg from David dating it 1974). This thing is so pretty I would not have guessed it to be that old.
I see now how each of the solutions could be accomplished.
As Tommy suggested, I have angled the lever to the left AND am sliding it forward on the rod enough to get it away from me (both done after pics taken) And, miraculously, I think this is going to be enough…
Whew! Was truly hoping not to have to disassemble it. I now see it is not truly “futile”… but I’ll call it daunting for a new guy like me.
On another note … appears not real easy to get bell cranks on and off of this one with this round rod setup? Have found a couple aluminum threads stripped out (unneeded or previously replaced thankfully).
Learning a lot these days….
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 10:37 am Re: Angling and shifting fwd
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| David Lee Todd wrote: |
| ...I’ll call it daunting for a new guy like me... |
Yes, I was picturing a Classic SS, which are easier to work on. Yours looks like an older Classic, those guitars are built like a locomotive but can be a PITA to change things around on. To move or change bell cranks etc. you remove the back aluminum apron rail, the cross shafts slide out the back. Moving the LKL over one space would be fairly simple but moving LKR would involve a bit more than just relocating existing parts because of the way the lever and reverser mount to the aluminum rail. You'd have to replicate those mount points one space over. It's certainly doable if you have the time and tools, but not a casual Saturday afternoon project. You would need to extend the vertical over too but that can be done by just extending the lever itself. Glad to hear you've got it sorted enough to be playable as-is 
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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