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Topic: Brittleness high frets 20th-26th |
Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 22 Dec 2022 4:35 pm |
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Hello mates, has anyone dealt with brittle, thin, harshness in the high fret range? I’ve been waiting to get a recording to demonstrate my issue, and I was asked to a jam session last week at a celebration of life benefit.
I was able to use my phone and stick it on the headstock and get a recording of a song when I went up in the high frets, it’s totally unrehearsed and improv on the spot so I wander and drift a bit but you can hear the thinness on the high frets, it’s brittle…Any inputs? Tips? Silky smoove highs preferred. https://youtu.be/pT5KHixkun0
_________________
A.K.A Chappy.
Last edited by Larry Bressington on 22 Dec 2022 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard Alderson
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 22 Dec 2022 5:44 pm
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Dear Chappy - I admire how Billy Cooper plays above the 15th fret, and I work every day on his stuff. He uses a Goodrich Matchbox plugged into just a Nashville 112. I dont know how he does it!. Its in the hands! I use a Black Box to tame harsh highs on the 112. So my tip is the Black Box signal enhancer to improve any solid state amp. If you are already using a tube amp, the Black box would be superfluous. Regarding hand placement there is still a little room to work above the 15th fret to get the right hand closer to the bar and pick farther from the pick up. But my main tip is the Black Box. It smooths out harsh highs on solid state amps. Great topic, I would like to see what our pros and legends have to say about your question.
_________________
Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500.
Last edited by Richard Alderson on 23 Dec 2022 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Dec 2022 8:13 pm More cable = less ice pick highs
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| Add more cable in the signal chain. And if you're using George-L cables, stop! (They emphasize the highs while doing nothing for the lows and mids.) |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 22 Dec 2022 8:41 pm
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Thanks fellows for the input , I’m prepared to try anything.
I use all Mogami cables that are fairly new but you got me thinking Donny I have plenty of other ones to experiment with, I’ll give that a run. 😊👍
Is the black box a tube pre-amp Richard?
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
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Richard Alderson
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 22 Dec 2022 8:59 pm What's a Black Box? A pre amp?
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Sarno Music solutions calls the Black Box a "tube pickup driver/buffer", and it goes first in the signal chain after the guitar and before the volume pedal. It adds some tube like warmth to the signal.
_________________
Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 4:40 am
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In the Electronics Section here on the SG Forum, Go back to page 2. There is a post "Quilter Steel Air Too Much Treble".
This is a good discussion on modern Amps and Cable problems.
Many members had used small .155 cables with older amps with good success for years, When going to some new recent built amps, Treble Adjustment has been a problem.
Heavy cables is a quick fix with some guitar/Amp setups. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 6:08 am
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Anything and everything can affect sound/tone, upper neck sound.
The amp and or speaker.
Cables
Guitar and or pickup
Effects
Volume Pedal.
Start eliminating or changing one at a time.
With some modern full frequency amps, such as Quilter, low capacitance cables such as George L's can contribute to your problem. |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 6:20 am
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| Just a thought, check your string gauges, too. For instance, if you're using a .011 3rd string, try a .0115 or .012. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 7:02 am
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This is from a previous discussion:
| Quote: |
Dennis Detweiler wrote:
Would the Freeloader or Matchbox control the resistance and get the same results as different size cables? |
I suspect that a Sarno Freeloader may have helped.
Read Brad's post here:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=162976
Here is another good read:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=372576
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 7:24 am
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Thanks chaps for the input, i'm following, much appreciated, and merry Christmas to you all.
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 8:53 am
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If you are using stainless steel stings, that could also contribute to the problem.
I get a more mellow, richer tone out of nickel strings.
Erv |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 9:29 am
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| Stainless Steel strings are only the wound strings (stainless steel winding). Plain strings are the same as nickel wound sets. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 9:41 am
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I only tried stainless once, they were not for me so that's out of the mix already. 
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 12:04 pm
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Did you try picking further away from the pickup?
You will get a mellower tone the more left of the pickup you pick. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2022 7:51 pm
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The link to the thread referenced in Bobby Jones’ post:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=385868
Some very interesting comments there, many favoring the switch to lower end cables being discussed here.
My dos centavos-
Your tone is gorgeous up to that point where you go into Hughey Land. So, unfortunately anything you do to tame that register will have an effect on everything down below it. What I noticed is the volume in that upper register. Maybe just back off the VP a tad when you’re there? |
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Drew Pierce
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 25 Dec 2022 6:44 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
Anything and everything can affect sound/tone, upper neck sound.
The amp and or speaker.
Cables
Guitar and or pickup
Effects
Volume Pedal.
Start eliminating or changing one at a time.
With some modern full frequency amps, such as Quilter, low capacitance cables such as George L's can contribute to your problem. |
I agree with everything Jack says here with the exception of the last sentence. Low capacitance cables such as George L's transmit as uncolored sound as possible. Increasing capacitance only strips the higher frequencies, leaving more lows for a potentially muddier sound. So my suggestion would be to concentrate on other EQ factors than the cables. (I also use a Goodrich Match Box and regularly tweak its tone knob depending on the space I'm playing in. I rarely have to tweak the EQ settings on my Evans RE500.)
After noticing that about 90% of the top pros at the ISG convention in St. Louis (over thirty years ago?) used George L's, I started using them and use them to this day. As long as all the connections are good and solid, there are never any problems and the sound you create is up to you and the rest of your equipment.
_________________
Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 6:49 am
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| Drew Pierce wrote: |
...I agree with everything Jack says here with the exception of the last sentence. Low capacitance cables such as George L's transmit as uncolored sound as possible... |
"Uncolored" sound? That's advertising talk. There are no rulebooks that say you have to get your sound in a certain manner; there is no right or wrong. (I've even known players that glued felt on the aluminum domes of JBL speakers to kill some highs, and get the sound they wanted.) You're free to use whatever you want to attain the sound you're after. If different cables help to give you the sound that you want to hear, then they're perfectly acceptable.
And if "uncolored sound" was what players really wanted, there would be no tone controls on amps or guitars, no EFX units, and we'd all be using high fidelity amps and speaker systems.  |
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Drew Pierce
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 7:08 am
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Maybe “colored sound” is the wrong term. A cable’s capacitance effects the signal it transmits. As capacitance increases, high frequency transmission decreases. That’s not advertising. It’s just a fact.
_________________
Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals. |
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Andy Vance
From:
Graham, Washington, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 8:00 am
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Colored vs uncolored probably wasn't what Jack was actually getting at. He was just stating that some of the new amps have a very different frequency response range than amps of earlier vintage and using low capacitance cables in the chain to the newer amps provides a very brittle and harsh high end. Using a higher capacitance cable tames some of that high end and allows the player to dial in "the tone/sound" they are trying to get.
I have only read about this issue as all of my amps are ancient.
Andy |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 2:07 pm
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Thanks fellows all good inputs, i appreciate it, i wish each and every one of you a fantastic 2023.
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 3:41 pm
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I don't think this has anything to do with cables.
The highest fret I've used so far is 24, where if you pick as close to the bridge as you can without getting tangled up in the pickup, your fingers are all picking at different points near the middle of the string's vibrating length, which is bound to give uneven results.
I escape from all this by picking near the bar, which is weird at first, but evens everything out. It's as if the instrument's been turned round the other way.
Oh, and Happy New Year! 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 5:15 pm
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sounds good to me , I don’t hear anything wrong with the tone , actually , sounds great , considering it’s a cell phone recording
_________________
https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Norbert Dengler
From:
germany
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 11:33 am
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| I`m with Damir, nothing wrong with your sound up the neck imho |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 4:53 pm
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Tube amps normally have high input impedances, on the order of one megohm. Transistor amps normally have a lower input impedance, around a quarter megohm. In addition, these values can change when something is plugged into the amp. (In our case, the pickup and volume pedal.)
The capacitance of the cable and the amp input impedance form a tuned circuit, one that emphasizes certain frequencies and de-emphasizes others. And since the values change depending on amp type, you will see a change in the tone when using different types of amps and cables. In some cases, a change in the way the volume pedal operates (its "taper") may also be evident.
All cables have capacitance, as well as resistance and inductance. And while it's true that the higher the cable capacitance is, the more the high frequencies will be attenuated, I want to make it absolutely clear that that's not necessarily a bad thing! If you want more highs, then yes, a lo-cap cable is a good thing. But, if you're having trouble with a thin sound, too many highs, or an "ice-picky" treble problem, adding capacitance in the cabling can sometimes be a useful and easy fix for the problem. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 28 Dec 2022 5:35 am
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Larry,
I would recommend going to an audiologist to do a check on your hearing. I do it every year. As we get older our ears change and often we become sensitive to higher frequencies along with other typical problems.
I combat this by AWAYS wearing ear protection when I play with other people. Bringing the volume down also helps me hear the full spectrum without the cringe factor.
It might not be the problem but it couldn’t hurt.
_________________
Bob |
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