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Topic: Minor ii-v-i voicings E9 and C6 |
Jimmy Washington
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2022 12:48 pm |
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| Looking for minor ii(half diminished) V(alt) i(min7 or min6) voicings and voiceleading for E9 and C6 |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 7 Dec 2022 3:59 pm
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Half-diminished (m7b5) can be had playing 8,7,6,5 on E9 with pedals down and Es lowered: the note on the 8th string gives you the name of the m7b5 (at zero fret, it's D#m7b5).
C6 it's easier still: play 6 through 2 with the 5th pedal.
There's a close relationship between the m7b5 and the 9th chord. The root is different, of course. |
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Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 8 Dec 2022 7:11 am
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Quick and dirty way: Pedals A & B, with A half-pedaled. So Am7b5 would be on 3rd fret.
What is a half diminished good for? It's the 2 chord in a minor key. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 8 Dec 2022 7:28 am
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Countless uses for the m7b5! It's a staple passing chord in quality pop music.
It can lead to a 3 major chord or a 4 minor. It's the same as a minor triad with a 6th on the bass. |
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Jimmy Washington
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2022 8:08 am
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| How about the V7alt chord in a minor key |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2022 2:48 pm
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| Jimmy Washington wrote: |
| How about the V7alt chord in a minor key |
V7alt is the same whether you resolve to a major chord or minor.
Use a diminished 7th voicing.
Check out this thread:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=386813&highlight=
Paul is on the right track, and Bengt wrote some tab to clear things up.
There are other ways to alter a V7 besides adding the b9, but that is the most accessible on standard E9 (E raise lever, strings 10-9-8-6-5-4-3) |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 9 Dec 2022 2:54 am
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For C6, check out this video on this exact subject on Youtube by Jim Cohen. He's got you covered:
https://youtu.be/TvP-p20dLWM
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 9 Dec 2022 3:32 am
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| So is that the chord that is so predominant in "Hold It" |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2022 12:44 pm
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
| So is that the chord that is so predominant in "Hold It" |
That chord is a dom7#9. The “Jimi Hendrix chord”. You often hear it at the end of a blues flavored tune, and it functions well as a I7 chord, like on Hold It.
The dom7b9 does not function very well as a I7, except maybe as a passing change ahead of the IV or ii. Even then, I would probably call it a different root name. Not too many bands are going to end “Blues In A” with an A7b9 chord. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 15 Dec 2022 5:28 am
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| Thanks Fred ,,,ways to make that chord,,,dom7#9 on E9 and C6???⁷ |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2022 9:59 am
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Dom7#9 On E9 -
Pedal A + E raise lever
Strings 9-8-6-5
Intervals 3-5-7-#9 (no root)
At fret 0, that would be Bb7#9. At fret 1, it’s B7#9, so you could just release pedal and lever and resolve the same strings down one fret to E7. Bluesy.
This voicing also functions as a dom13b9. Same strings, but the intervals are 7-b9-3-13. At fret 0, it would be E13b9. Resolve it to A6 (pedals down / strings 10-8-7-6 same fret) for a groovy swingy chord change. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 15 Dec 2022 5:33 pm
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| C6??? |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 15 Dec 2022 5:43 pm
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| Pedal 8 |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 16 Dec 2022 8:50 am
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Barry Harris:
ANY Dominant Chord (C6th: P5 or P6 or P8 or raising the A's or the C's half... just to mention the basic ones) generates a mb5 starting at the 3rd degree of the Dominant chord.
So, C7th's 3rd degree is E... -> Emb5
Likewise, a minor11th,13th is born out of the 5th degree of that same Dominant chord.
A different way to look at this is:
Also minors have a "Relative" minor born at their 6th degree. The "relative minor of a minor is a half-diminished... a mb5.
So a minor6th chord, generates generates a full mb5 from it's 6th degree on.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2022 12:48 pm
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
Barry Harris:
ANY Dominant Chord (C6th: P5 or P6 or P8 or raising the A's or the C's half... just to mention the basic ones) generates a mb5 starting at the 3rd degree of the Dominant chord.
So, C7th's 3rd degree is E... -> Emb5
Likewise, a minor11th,13th is born out of the 5th degree of that same Dominant chord.
A different way to look at this is:
Also minors have a "Relative" minor born at their 6th degree. The "relative minor of a minor is a half-diminished... a mb5.
So a minor6th chord, generates generates a full mb5 from it's 6th degree on.
... J-D. |
And I thought my post was scary. If I may add to this rocky horror picture...
One detail - The mb5 chord is not half-diminished until the b7 is added. Until then, it’s just a diminished triad that you can call “minor-flat-five”, if it floats yer boat.
One more detail - The statement, “Also minors have a "Relative" minor born at their 6th degree.”, is true for m6 chords.
But...
The 6th degree up from a minor chord can be major or minor, depending on mode. In D Dorian, the 6th of Dm is major. No problem building Bm7b5 there. But in Aeolian, the 6th is minor. If a chord is built from the minor 6th of the A minor chord in A Aeolian mode (which would be an F), the 3rd interval (A) would be major. Tough to build a minor chord with a major 3rd from the root. You end up with Fmaj7. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 16 Dec 2022 2:00 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| J D Sauser wrote: |
Barry Harris:
ANY Dominant Chord (C6th: P5 or P6 or P8 or raising the A's or the C's half... just to mention the basic ones) generates a mb5 starting at the 3rd degree of the Dominant chord.
So, C7th's 3rd degree is E... -> Emb5
Likewise, a minor11th,13th is born out of the 5th degree of that same Dominant chord.
A different way to look at this is:
Also minors have a "Relative" minor born at their 6th degree. The "relative minor of a minor is a half-diminished... a mb5.
So a minor6th chord, generates generates a full mb5 from it's 6th degree on.
... J-D. |
And I thought my post was scary. If I may add to this rocky horror picture...
One detail - The mb5 chord is not half-diminished until the b7 is added. Until then, it’s just a diminished triad that you can call “minor-flat-five”, if it floats yer boat.
One more detail - The statement, “Also minors have a "Relative" minor born at their 6th degree.”, is true for m6 chords.
But...
The 6th degree up from a minor chord can be major or minor, depending on mode. In D Dorian, the 6th of Dm is major. No problem building Bm7b5 there. But in Aeolian, the 6th is minor. If a chord is built from the minor 6th of the A minor chord in A Aeolian mode (which would be an F), the 3rd interval (A) would be major. Tough to build a minor chord with a major 3rd from the root. You end up with Fmaj7. |
Yep, and then Tune up your bottom C on C6th to D (as Maurice had C on his Bb6th) and you have the root to your Dm9th (which full circle around is FMajor's relative minor).
Barry Harris uses the V7th being a ii-m6th (rooted at the 5th degree of the V7th to play over the ii-m, V... "see I don't play the ii-minor... I play the V"
The easy way to look at it on C6th, is the 8th string rooted ii-m on C6th... add P5 to it, it's V7th rooted on the bottom string... BUT also still ii-m6th.
Pat Martino goes the other way around and looks from the minors in all directions.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2022 6:01 pm
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So I think you just agreed with me about something that I disagreed with you about, JD. 
The OP is a question about IIm-V7-Im
The IIm in that progression is, by definition for all intents and purposes, a IIm7b5
It could just as easily be called IVm6, according to your Barry Harris quote. I concur with this, even though I might disagree with the wording of the exact quote you quoted.
So my question is, why isn’t it? For those of us who think more in terms of I-IV-V, this may be a mystery. Especially since IIm-V-I can also be thought of as IV-V-I. So why does IIm7b5 get this preference over IVm6?
This is one of the things that turns people off about music theory. There are as many ways of saying and understanding the same thing as there are ways of playing it.
It’s all about the bass, of course. On steel or guitar or piano, you can voice the chord any way you want. But if the bass is playing a II, that’s where the name comes from.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 16 Dec 2022 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 16 Dec 2022 6:16 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
So I think you just agreed with me about something that I disagreed with you about, JD.
The OP is a question about IIm-V7-Im
The IIm in that progression is, by definition for all intents and purposes, a IIm7b5
It could just as easily be called IVm6, according to your Barry Harris quote. I concur with this, even though I might disagree with the wording of the exact quote you quoted.
So my question is, why isn’t it? For those of us who think more in terms of I-IV-V, this may be a mystery. Especially since IIm-V-I can also be thought of as IV-V-I. So why does IIm7b5 get this preference over IVm6?
This is one of the things that turns people off about music theory. There are as many ways of saying and understanding the same thing as there are ways of playing it.
It’s all about the bass, of course. On steel or guitar or piano, you can voice the chord any way you want. But if the bass is playing a II, that’s where the name comes from. |
I have no issue agreeing with you, Fred 😇
Music “Theory” is not exact science, it’s not even physics. Some even chalanges physics. It’s not sciseled in granite and should be called TheorIES. There is after all many ways to skin a cat.
Theories are nithing but explained opinions.
The more I immerse myself in it, the more I try to attach or translate to something I thought I had understood before.
I once it’s understood, I don’t think it to be a turn off to look at “the same thing” from different “angles” until you find a way that makes sence to you, to the point where it evolves into something one can use musically beyond just an “exercise”.
I try to keep an open mind, it’s not easy, but my biggest recommendation.
Thanks!… JD
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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