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Topic: Low E issue on Excel S10 |
Benjamin Poilve
From:
France
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 4:06 am |
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Hello everybody,
This morning I noticed an issue on my S10 2021 Exstar Excel.
When I tune my low E :
- If I use my LKR (lowering), the E will return flat
- If I use mu LKL (pulling), the E will return tuned
I followed the troubleshooting steps described here:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=375818
I can safely say that the issue is not with the pull train, by :
- making sure there is slack in all levers linked to Es
- pushing the lower with a screwdriver and having the same issue
I can fix the issue by tightening the lower return spring two full turns. However I don't think this is a good fix because :
- I understood that we should usually not mess with factory settings of springs (which is why I carefully counted the number of turns)
- The troubleshooting guide seem to point to improper lubrification, and I could visually see that both part of the scissor seem to be "sticky", meaning that moving one seem to slightly make the other move
The advice in the guide would be "put one drop on the rivet that holds the scissors together". However I cannot for the life of me locate that rivet ! Any help from Exstar owners?
Also, did anybody ever took apart an Exstar changer? Any specific challenges?
A couple of additional info:
- This is a sudden change. I just got back from a recording session, and nothing was troublesome then.
- I usually change my string every 4 months, I changed them one week ago. When the string are off, I put one drop (tip of a needle) of 3 in 1 oil on the roller axle for each string, and on the contact between changers, one of the top, then put the guitar legs up, one on the bottom.
Thanks in advance! |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 4:40 am
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Depending on how far off the pitch of the strings are you may be experiencing hysteresis which is something that does occur on strings being raised and lowered. To see if this is a possibility lower your string and when you return it check your tuning. Then barely tap your raise lever and see if comes back to pitch. If it does that could be your problem.
To solve it the best suggestion would be to change the string. Tightening the lower return spring also works and those springs are made to be adjustable for a reason. If that solved the problem then just keep playing. Weather conditions can effect to strength of the return spring to some degree.
Hope this helps.
regards,
_________________
Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 5:29 am
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-- hysteresis results in a lowered string returning sharp
-- it is perfectly reasonable to adjust the return spring. The correct adjustment is when it provides enough tension to return the string to pitch. Observe, right where the spring attaches to the finger, whether the finger is not returning to its stop. If a littler push with the finger moves it to the stop, then a tighter spring is probably called for.
Now -- this could be remedying a changer that needs lubrication -or- cleaning. Inadequate lubrication or old oil that has gotten gummy can make the changer sluggish and require tighter return springs. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 6:14 am
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Jon,
Thanks for pointing out my mistake on hysteresis. The last thing I want to do is put out the wrong information to someone on the forum.
All the best.
_________________
Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 6:22 am
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| Mark -- it seems to defy physics. For all the explanations I've read, I can't say that I've got a grasp. |
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Mike Vallandigham
From:
Martinez, CA
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 10:17 am
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I've had a few issues like this - where something is catching as the finger moves.
Look for burrs on the edges of the fingers - where they scissor back together.
It's like if you have a pair of scissors with a nick in the blade - as you get to it it requires more force to go past it.
I think I aded more return spring to get it seated - but eventually, I think I cleaned up the edge of the offending finger and it was fixed.
Sometimes, the reason this may just pop up is just shifting around in the changer - the offending fingers get pressed together and it binds a little.
Also, I have had two Excel changers apart - and it's an easy job. If you jut record all the holes the pullers are in, you can just put it right back together.
I can help you more if you decide to go there.
Mike |
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Benjamin Poilve
From:
France
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 11:38 pm
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Well first, thank you all for the support and suggestions ! It feels lonely sometime this side of the ocean knowing that there is no qualified tech on the continent should something go wrong. This forum is truly invaluable for this very reason.
Thanks as well for teaching me about hysteresis, an interesting phenomenon.
| Quote: |
| Observe, right where the spring attaches to the finger, whether the finger is not returning to its stop. If a littler push with the finger moves it to the stop, then a tighter spring is probably called for. |
This is precisely what prompted me to tighten the springs, the fact that the finger was not returning flush with the others. So I understand:
- This can be a valid fix
- However the root cause could be improper (too much or too little) lubrication
- Or some nick or burrs on the edge of the finger
I'll probably give it a closer inspection, but for now I don't think I'll change my oiling routine since it seems clean enough. If nothing comes up, I'll stick with the spring solution. In the long term I'll clean the changer properly but this seems a little early now, a year and a half after reception.
| Quote: |
| Also, I have had two Excel changers apart - and it's an easy job. |
That's a relief ! Mitsuo's work looks like magic from the outside, I would not want to improperly service it.
My general plan would be :
- Taking a lot of pictures of the undercarriage (for safety)
- Make a proper roding chart (for safety)
- Take out all rods. On each, put a tape with the bellcrank identification and hole, string, and changer hole
- Take out the springs
- Here it gets a little messy: do I need to extract the axle? How do I free each finger?
- Flush everything to degrease it
- Regrease specific contact points (do I need some special products for the inner lubrication?)
- Put the fingers back (do I need to rotate them to distribute the wear?)
- Put the springs back in (I think I saw a tightening procedure somewhere in the forum. Do I need to rotate them to distribute the tension?)
- Put back the rods !
As you see @Mike, a lot of unknown, I might take you up on the offer ! |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 4:16 am
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At the risk of stating some obvious things:
When you raise a string, the string, itself, is the return spring. When you lower a string, it wants to stay lowered as the string, with tension eased, is happier relaxed. So we have the return spring. It adds some (maybe) unwanted resistance to the operation of the knee lever so when we adjust this spring, we tighten it just enough that it reliably returns the string and then we tighten it a little bit more for insurance. On occasion, during maintenance, I will adjust these springs right to the edge of proper functioning, trying to gain every last bit of playing ease. But I will sometimes come back to it and find that there is a fraction of a mm of return movement left in the finger. Reliable functioning is more important than that last micro-bit of saved effort. You also need to check any raises on that string to be sure that the return spring tension is adequate to resist the pull of the raise finger on the lower.
All of this is to say that needing to adjust this spring CAN be an indication of an underlying problem of parts not moving freely. But it can also be considered a standard bit of fine tuning. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 19 Nov 2022 2:11 pm
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On a Keyless Guitar, "String Hysteresis" should be virtually so minimal that it would not be perceived as bothersome.
So unless we are talking about less then 2 cents, I would first check:
1- Return Spring TENSION. I want those lower fingers to SNAP back at the resting bar with an audible "clack" when I push them out with a screw driver and let them go. I have several full tone and a 5-semitone lower on both my Excel Superb S12's and they all are well "educated" to snap back solidly.
2- friction on the nut-rollers.
3- frictions in the undercarriage.
4- raiser-help-string over tensioned (I hate those things anyways).
4- old or faulty string.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Benjamin Poilve
From:
France
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Posted 20 Nov 2022 12:42 am
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Thank you both!
The procedure to set the return spring is now clear to me: identify the lower tension for a consistent return, then turn a bit more to have a "decisive" snap-back movement as described by JD. This is great as I know feel confident to set up this on my steel as well.
Regarding the raiser help string, do you have any insight on how to know whether they are properly set or no ? I understand that they are there to supplement the string pulling force, but how to know if they are not overtightened?
Thanks JD for the troubleshooting list, always useful to have such checklists. I would not discard a bad string, I just changed it a week ago and one of the higher string is rings strangely (I don't know how to describe it, but between the 8th and 12th fret, it has no sustain, the note just gets muted). |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 20 Nov 2022 4:17 am
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re: raise helper springs --
I do NOT have expertise here. I've been learning some things lately as I try to fine-tune my pedal feel to accommodate my foot health issues where every little bit of assistance helps (and therefore I DO like raise helper springs).
As you activate the lever/pedal, observe on the changer:
-- a raise that has a helper spring. Be certain that the raise returns firmly, precisely, positively, completely. In other words be sure that the spring is not hindering the return.
-- a lower on a string that also has a raise and a raise spring on it. Watch to see if the raise spring and the raise finger move at all during the lower. Double-pump the lower -- take the lever to the stop, then back it off halfway and and take it back to the stop. Watch that raise spring & finger. Over-tension of the helper spring can cause interaction with the lower and can bring the raise finger with the lower.
I am not familiar with Excel engineering so my observations are generic. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 20 Nov 2022 7:39 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
re: raise helper springs --
I do NOT have expertise here. I've been learning some things lately as I try to fine-tune my pedal feel to accommodate my foot health issues where every little bit of assistance helps (and therefore I DO like raise helper springs).
As you activate the lever/pedal, observe on the changer:
-- a raise that has a helper spring. Be certain that the raise returns firmly, precisely, positively, completely. In other words be sure that the spring is not hindering the return.
-- a lower on a string that also has a raise and a raise spring on it. Watch to see if the raise spring and the raise finger move at all during the lower. Double-pump the lower -- take the lever to the stop, then back it off halfway and and take it back to the stop. Watch that raise spring & finger. Over-tension of the helper spring can cause interaction with the lower and can bring the raise finger with the lower.
I am not familiar with Excel engineering so my observations are generic. |
Hey Jon! 
The problem I see with raiser helper springs on All-Pull PSGs is twofold:
1- The resting body-contact pressure at “open” (no pedals/levers engaged): Push-Pull” guitars have proven that you want the strongest contact possible of a resting finger to the stop-plate/body. Raise "helper" strings diminish that pressure.
2- on an All-Pull, long travel lower can result in lifting off the raiser finger… resulting in an odd "endless" lower-pull going “nowhere” over a certain point. If not, at least the aforementioned desirable presure of the raiser finger is diminished and a raise helper spring further diminishes it, in some cases even to the point of a “lift off”.
Both above concerns not aren't "just" about tuning but TONE too.
Furthermore, as the return springs have to overcome string tension, they are pulling harder than the string itself. So, lowers are harder to execute as raises, because the resistance to overcome is higher.
Thus, on a modern well designed, well balanced All-Pull changer, I don’t see the need for raise helpers (if one has the strength to execute a lower (which is harder than an un-assisted raise, one ought to be well able to do a non-assisted raise. But that’s my opinion.
Strings:
I seem to quite often have “bad” wound strings that either fail intonation and/or generate buzzy noises. I seem to encounter that problem quite often lately with several brands nickel & stainless.
You may however also want to check for anything loose, burrs or dirt at the changer finge, sloppy springs etc.
Benjamin, Is your guitar 24.25 or 25,5 inch scale? I assumed it’s keyless.
Thanks… JD
edited Nov. 21st for horrible grammar, typo's (I used my cell phone to post originally).
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
Last edited by J D Sauser on 21 Nov 2022 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Vallandigham
From:
Martinez, CA
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Posted 20 Nov 2022 8:34 am
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JD makes a great point #2- worth pointing out twice.
You gotta make sure any spring setting holds when you have the maximum raise or lower actuated on the string.
When I set them, I hit the lever or pedal with the max pull and watch the spring - make sure they don't budge.
You can adjust the springs in the neutral position and they'll hold, but hit a pedal or Lever and the increased tension will pull it out of whack.
I think Ben's guitar is a short scale. |
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Benjamin Poilve
From:
France
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Posted 22 Nov 2022 1:30 am
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Indeed, my guitar is 24-1/8", and yes it's a keyless! It's the new Excel changer type with tuning at the changer end.
I guess for now, the "tone" limitation are mostly in my hands, but I'll be sure to get back to this thread once I feel the need to further fine tune my guitar.
| Quote: |
| long travel lower can result in lifting off the raiser finger… resulting in an odd "endless" lower-pull going “nowhere” over a certain point |
I was seeing something close to that before tightening the return spring, with the raise finger lifting. But it's staying steady now. I'll make sure to have a close inspection of any interaction between any lower and raise in the future (thanks for the "double pump" method).
Regarding strings, If anybody have recommendation for a reputable Europe supplier, I'll be happy to know. Importing almost makes a string set cost 20€ which seems excessive for regular changes. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 22 Nov 2022 4:19 am
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| Benjamin Poilve wrote: |
Indeed, my guitar is 24-1/8", and yes it's a keyless! It's the new Excel changer type with tuning at the changer end.
I guess for now, the "tone" limitation are mostly in my hands, but I'll be sure to get back to this thread once I feel the need to further fine tune my guitar.
| Quote: |
| long travel lower can result in lifting off the raiser finger… resulting in an odd "endless" lower-pull going “nowhere” over a certain point |
I was seeing something close to that before tightening the return spring, with the raise finger lifting. But it's staying steady now. I'll make sure to have a close inspection of any interaction between any lower and raise in the future (thanks for the "double pump" method).
Regarding strings, If anybody have recommendation for a reputable Europe supplier, I'll be happy to know. Importing almost makes a string set cost 20€ which seems excessive for regular changes. |
Mon chere Benjamin.
www.Thomann.de
C6th: https://www.thomann.de/intl/ghs_pedal_steel_set_st_c6_stainl.htm
E9th: https://www.thomann.de/intl/ghs_pf500_e9.htm
... Jean-David
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Posted 25 Nov 2022 9:58 pm
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My experience is that different guitars handle oil on top of the changer in different ways. My Anapegs are kept oiled on top, no probs. My Williams will come back up flat on the wound strings - especially the E - if i oil the top of the strings. After a couple of days sitting (or 1-2 hours playing at home) it comes good, so I do it anyway each time I re-string. Not a problem on the plain strings
_________________
Luke Drifter on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ralwaybell
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http://ralwaybell.bandcamp.com/ |
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Benjamin Poilve
From:
France
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Posted 27 Nov 2022 6:18 am
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Thank you Jean-David for the tip ! I was persuaded that Thomann was not carrying any steel-related equipment but I was wrong. A much more sensible price indeed.
| Quote: |
| My Anapegs are kept oiled on top, no probs. My Williams will come back up flat on the wound strings - especially the E - if i oil the top of the strings. |
When I say "on top of the changer" I mean on the contact zone between plates, never on the string themselves. Is that wrong? My understanding (both for changer and neck rollers) was that oil was not to get in contact with the strings themselves. |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Marshall Woodall
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2023 10:04 am Excel Changer
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| Hey Benjamin, did you ever resolve your tuning problem with the Excel? I am having a similar issue with my guitar and I'm not sure what is going on. On my 4th string fingers, it seems that once they are tuned to raise and lower (in my case whole tones up and down on certain pulls) the string does not want to return to pitch. I went through everyone's suggested troubleshooting steps and double checked for overtuning but it appears that what is happening is very slight sympathetic finger movement that somehow never fully seats. So if I tweak out my raises relative to the open E all is fine. As I put tension on the lowering nuts/finger I end up in a situation where the lowered pulls will come back consistently sharp (opposite of a return spring issue). It seems like classic overtuning but the fingers both look like they are at their full stops/resting places. I'm leaning towards some kind of residue or maybe a burr between the fingers but I really don't want to pull it all apart right now. I have lubed it up and have been exercising everything so who knows if it will settle down. All of this occurs regardless of helper or return spring tension. Anyway, I was just curious if you came to some kind of resolution? |
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