MSA return spring mounting - update

Bill Johnson · From: Washington, USA

I have a 1979 Vintage XL Supersustain II.
My questions are about the return spring mounting.
The clip that secures the one end of the spring to the tailpiece is something I haven't had on my older Classics.
The springs are the same gauge wire and the same length as on the classic. The clip adds another 1/2" to the length of the spring.
It's obvious that with the clip installed, there won't be as much tension for the return. Is it meant to have a shorter spring?
I haven't been able to check which is a better set up because I got the guitar in pieces and am still working on it.
Are these clips something that MSA came out with in later years? or did a previous owner think he was doing something magical?
If the clips are factory, has anyone removed them and still gotten good results?
Any thoughts or comments are welcome because at this point, I don't have a clue.

Thanks, Bill

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

The booby prize of the day. Looks like someone went to a hardware store bought new springs, They was to short and added that clip to make them longer to work. !!! Maybe.

I have owned 2 MSA Classics, When the springs have to be stretched to get the pulls right, The Springs are ugly. But that is what it takes to set up the pulls proper. But some think they need replaced, So they are pretty.

Bill Johnson · From: Washington, USA

Bobby, I totally agree. Booby prize for sure.
The puzzle to what this guy was thinking seems to be growing.
It is evident they were trying to adjust something with the pulls or tension.
Since I got the guitar unplayable, my first order of business was to start working on refinishing the cabinet, therefore not checking the hardware to closely.
I am now in the middle of the lacquer applications and letting it set for a while before sanding.
After inspecting the changer to see what kind of work will be needed, I noticed that someone had tried to tighten the rivets
of the pull scissors using a center punch instead of a proper rivet tool. (ask me how I know this) The results are all of the
rivets are split and flattened on the rollover, causing over half of the fingers to bind. Looks like I will be rebuilding those now.
All of the pedal return springs are missing and the guide slots on the tailpiece have been milled out.
At this point, all I can imagine is that this guy was trying to lessen the pedal and lever tension while still keeping the return springs looking pretty.
I am sure more will come up as I get into it.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Sounds like someone may have got in over their head, And done some things, That should have been done a different way, For the good of the guitar.
Good Luck getting this old war horse back sounding pretty.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Lower return springs counter string tension. If after you install them and you find the lower scissor is lifting off the stop statically, you'll need more tension. Turn the screw CW?
IMO, a longer spring will provide more linear tension. You may want to go back to the original design length and omit that piece.

Bill Johnson · From: Washington, USA

I hear you Jim, it looks like I will be doing some assembling, fitting and testing to achieve the desired results.
I have finished the rebuild of the changer. This entailed cleaning, sanding and polishing all the hardware,
along with installing new rivets on the finger scissors and new spacer washers on the changer shaft.
With a little bit of "Tri Flow" lube to complete, the changer function is as smooth as silk now.
To note: the rivets were so worn, the lower fingers cut deep grooves on the underside of the stop bar. (I have made a new one to replace)
This guitar is the poster child for the need of occasional lubrication.
Back to working on the cabinet for now.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

From the picture, The Screw is just a mounting screw 90 degrees to the pull force direction, And would not adjust the tension of the spring.
Did they make the distance from the screw hole to the spring hook in different lengths to adjust spring tension?

An original set of springs designed for the MSA Classic would make setting the guitar up easier, Or
PSGParts did make a replacement set of springs with Screw Tension adjustment. May be something to consider in the rebuild.
Good Luck in the way you choose.

Bill Johnson · From: Washington, USA

Bobby, your right, there is no adjustment for spring tension on these.
All of the spring hooks are made identical in length. The springs are the same ones that are on a "Classic".
I am still wondering if MSA made these spring hooks or if a previous owner made them or purchased them somewhere.
The original "Classic" springs always seemed a little overkill to me so, the spring hook was a way to lower tension
without stretching the spring and making it appear unsightly.
Unfortunately, PSG parts are out of stock on the adjustable spring kits. I definitely would have ordered one.
So, I will be trying the setup both ways, with and without the hooks to see what works best, and if need be,
I will just stretch the springs. I am not bothered by the appearance of a stretched spring; you do what you gotta do!

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Just to muddy the waters.

My understanding is a shorter spring requires less stretch to reach the desired tension to hold the lower finger than a longer one of the same style. That sounds good, but… it also means any lowering action will encounter more resistance than a longer spring. That is - be stiffer. That is because the relative length of movement compared to the spring length is greater for a short spring.

Of course the lowering action should feel similar to a raise action and the length of your string might be just right.

Bill Johnson · From: Washington, USA

Well, it's been a while since rebuilding the changer and getting the cabinet ready to mount the hardware.
Before even installing the cross shafts, bell cranks and pull rods, I installed an old set of strings for a quick test of the lower return springs.
It was quickly noted that with the spring hooks installed, the lower fingers would not return fully to the stop bar on a consistent basis.
I then installed the springs without the hooks, and without surprise, everything worked as it should.
On another note: I was at my local ACE hardware the other day and just happened to spot some hooks that looked identical
to the ones that were on my springs. Any ideas? Wall hooks for picture frame wire...
Someone got creative, too bad it didn't solve their problem. Now I see why I got the guitar in pieces.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Some times it is fun to work a jig saw puzzle. You get a good price on a steel guitar, law mower, garden tiller, In boxes, cans and a bucket.

But if it is no longer made, It is hard to get parts that work proper for the task.

Good Luck, Hope you get this guitar back singing pretty.

Bill Johnson · From: Washington, USA

A lot of forum members have contacted me wanting to know if I ever got the guitar completed.
Even though there were a few bumps along the way, yes indeed the guitar is finished.
I must say that this is the quietest, smoothest playing, best sounding MSA I have ever had.
It meant a lot to me to bring this old workhorse back to life instead of stripping it for parts as I had originally planned.
It is now set up as E9/B6 universal with 7 pedals and 5 knees. (Emmons copedent)
Hopefully it will be bringing enjoyment to future players for another 44+ years.
And thanks to all the members that helped me source all the parts needed for this re-hab. Very Happy

.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

That guitar is beautiful, After you gave it's 44th Birthday bath. Did you put any perfume on it so it smells as good as it looks?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I wonder if someone worked on the guitar and could not find a set of original springs. And had to start Jerry rigging.

It seems that when MSA developed the Classic series they had a certain size spring wire and spring diameter to work proper.

On the MSA Classic I pulled both changers on, Had some odd size springs. The guitar was not set up proper when I got it.

I got every Raise and Lower working except 1. I fought the 10th string, C to A lower on the 8th pedal C6th neck, It would start to lower the string, Then the Raise lever would pull away from the stop bar, And quit lowering.

A steeler friend was going through some of his parts and found 3 or 4 original MSA Classic Return Springs, And gave them to me. I put 1 of the original springs on the 10 string and in very little adjustment a perfect lower from C to A.

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

I like adjustable return springs so I can adjust them to just the right amount of tension required. I designed an adjustable system for the old MSA's and I convert all of mine. Michael at PSG Parts was making them for a while.

_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Bill Johnson · From: Washington, USA

[quote="Bobby D. Jones"] I wonder if someone worked on the guitar and could not find a set of original springs. And had to start Jerry rigging.

Bobby,
That's exactly what they did amongst a few other things.
On the Vintage XL with the three over three changer, it required a spring that was a 1/2" longer than the older "Classic" springs. (2 over 2 changer)
That is why they put on the clips that I was curious about, but it didn't stop there. They also had mismatched wire thickness. diameter and length.
I just purchased extra-long springs that I could cut to length and form my own mounting ends. After several test fittings, I landed on the right combination.
Now it works like a dream.

Mark Shields · From: Arizona, USA

I’m having trouble on lowering on my old msa. As I tune my lever from e to eb, changes the tuning of the open string dramatically . Is this a spring thing. I have the mounted spring like the pictures below. I have extra springs from another old msa. Will that help?

Bill Johnson · From: Washington, USA

Mark,
The most common thing I have found on my old MSA's that had this kind of problem was in the changer.
With all the years of built-up crud like dust, dirt, oil, grease, rust or corrosion, there tends to be a lot of
friction in the scissor fingers causing binding in raises and lowers.
For a quick fix, you can try adding some lube to the fingers and axle to see if that frees up anything.
If you get an immediate improvement, that just shows that it is time for a good changer cleaning.
It is also possible that the scissor rivets are worn and will need replacing.
If all the return springs look to be the same wire sizes and dimensions and not stretched too much, they are probably ok.
I am no repair expert by any means, just my experience of owning over a dozen MSA "Classics" over the years. (They are great guitars; I still have four)
Another possible problem could be in the adjustment of the tuning nuts. Some helpful information about proper set up on an all pull changer
can be found in the sticky notes at the top of the page on the pedal steel topics page. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=326460
Hope this helps and good luck.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

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