| Author |
Topic: Johnny Cox And MSA Millennium Iterations |
Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 5 Nov 2022 4:26 pm |
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Hey Johnny and folks - it seems Sonny's "testing the waters" post on his Milly #1 has, with pictures, become a more serious "For Sale" post, so thought the discussion on Millie generational changes should get it's own thread and leave his alone.
I asked:
Johnny, I would love to see a detailed explanation on the various Millennium generations - what changes where made, etc.
| Quote: |
| I've owned an 06 M2 and an 07 M3. There were some obvious changes - alloy vs. Carbon laminate pedal bar and knee levers. But if there were distinctions in the changer or pull system, I never noticed them. There is rather solid info on the various models of Sho-Buds and Emmons, but not the Milly's. It might be good to get it in the record while you and others still have it fresh in your minds as these guitars were built to last - probably longer than many of us will live! |
Johnny replied:
| Quote: |
The M1 had a three raise / 3 lower changer. Four and five hole belcranks, carbon fiber knee lever handles, carbon fiber legs and pedal bar and an open end keyhead.
M2 is when we added a 4 raise hole in the changer. By default it changed the geometry of the pulls a little but for the better. Also the knee levers and pedal bar got changed to aluminum for looks. The three piece keyhead was replaced with a one piece billet aluminum keyhead.
M3 upgraded the belcranks to the 13 hole that has remained and legs were changed to aluminum.
The Legend, Studio Pro and Tour Pro have the same mechanics as the M3. There have been a couple other tweaks since I worked there all for the better. Also since I left the addition of Lfrets and Aura Lites have been a very positive addition.
I personally hated to see the Millennium go away. The reasons were because 20 years ago there were few people to make those bodies and they were very expensive. The other reason is that most players wouldn't give it a chance because it wasn't wood. Bobbe Seymour didn't help that with all his "Plastic guitar" B.S. either. I loved the Milly's I had and am looking for an S12 now.
I believe that the current line of MSA guitars are the best all pull guitars available today. |
Johnny, are you sure about the move to alloy pedal bars and levers for the M2? I have an M2, 2006 that has the carbon skinned pedal bar (alloy extrusion inside), and has the alloy levers but with carbon fiber "sculpted" parts:
I had a 2007 M3 - the Burgundy one that Tommy White played on the Opry some - that had the all alloy pedal bar and knee levers. So I assumed the change happened between M2 and M3, which occurred around 06/07. But maybe like Sho-Bud it depended upon what the customer wanted or perhaps the color (were they painted after the order, or perhaps they had black ones but not other colors?).
Some more general information: My M2 weighs 36.8, the M3 weighed 39.8. The M3 did have an extra crossrod in it as it came with 9 pedals. I removed one of the pedals, but the cross rod was still in place. I assume the weight difference was mostly the pedal bar, but never weighed the two separately to see.
If the M3 was 24 1/4" scale, I never noticed the extra 1/4". And I could not say there was any difference in tone between them.
The one difference that was noticeable to me was the pedal bar - I preferred the alloy pedal bar. The reason is the means of connecting the alloy insert into the carbon shell is a bit awkward. While the mechanism to lock the bar to the legs is attached to the alloy insert, it is the carbon shell that keeps it from moving up or down as it rests on a flange built into the leg (preventing it from slipping down) and the locking knob on the leg can be adjusted to fit just above the shell, locking the bar in place (unless, of course, one extends the leg up to get more room under the guitar).I had problems with the method of securing the alloy insert into the carbon shell - it uses several allen or "rub" screws to secure it all. I've had no problem since, but very rarely gig, so the guitar mostly stays set up in my music room. A simple solution to this would be to put two short round-head bolts through the front of the carbon shell into the alloy insert (drilled and threaded for them). You loose the perfect smooth exterior of the pedal bar, but many guitars have something similar where they mount the pedal bar to the legs.
Within the past 8 years or so I've sold an '84 Zum D-10, a '73 Sho-Bud Pro II, a '75 Sho-Bud Pro II S-12, and the M3. All got compared with the same amp to the M2 I still own. To be honest, I expected to prefer the tone of the vintage Sho-Buds (the Pro II had Wallace Truetones and the Pro II had the original Sho-Bud pickup). But I thought the two Millies sounded the best, particularly with the Alumitone pickups.
So those are my experiences with Millenniums. I'm very happy with them. There were aspects to the Zumsteel mechanics I liked better than the MSA, but also some aspects of the MSA I like better. But for someone living in the warm, moist tropics, the perfectly stable body of the Millennium is a winner for me, and why it's now the only pedal steel I own.
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Nov 2022 7:22 pm Re: Johnny Cox And MSA Millennium Iterations
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| Douglas Schuch wrote: |
Johnny, are you sure about the move to alloy pedal bars and levers for the M2? I have an M2, 2006 that has the carbon skinned pedal bar (alloy extrusion inside), and has the alloy levers but with carbon fiber "sculpted" parts:
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My original Millennium has the carbon-skinned aluminum pedal bar, as well as the "sculpted" carbon fiber knee levers. But the levers have no aluminum extrusion on the back. |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 6 Nov 2022 7:29 pm
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Donny - thanks - that answers one question!
This is just one man's opinion - but the M3 made a lot of sense to me - carbon fiber where it gave the most benefit - the body - very stable, unaffected by normal temperatures or moisture - and alloy all the places where the benefits of carbon are not so significant: alloy necks, pedal bars, etc. If there was a market for them and a builder willing to tackle the project, I suspect it would be much easier today to find a company to mold the bodies. I know James Adams, the reso builder, makes carbon-body resos and has a guy who builds boat parts make the bodies on an as-needed basis.
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 7 Nov 2022 7:48 am Re: Johnny Cox And MSA Millennium Iterations
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| Douglas Schuch wrote: |
Hey Johnny and folks - it seems Sonny's "testing the waters" post on his Milly #1 has, with pictures, become a more serious "For Sale" post, so thought the discussion on Millie generational changes should get it's own thread and leave his alone.
I asked:
Johnny, I would love to see a detailed explanation on the various Millennium generations - what changes where made, etc.
| Quote: |
| I've owned an 06 M2 and an 07 M3. There were some obvious changes - alloy vs. Carbon laminate pedal bar and knee levers. But if there were distinctions in the changer or pull system, I never noticed them. There is rather solid info on the various models of Sho-Buds and Emmons, but not the Milly's. It might be good to get it in the record while you and others still have it fresh in your minds as these guitars were built to last - probably longer than many of us will live! |
Johnny replied:
| Quote: |
The M1 had a three raise / 3 lower changer. Four and five hole belcranks, carbon fiber knee lever handles, carbon fiber legs and pedal bar and an open end keyhead.
M2 is when we added a 4 raise hole in the changer. By default it changed the geometry of the pulls a little but for the better. Also the knee levers and pedal bar got changed to aluminum for looks. The three piece keyhead was replaced with a one piece billet aluminum keyhead.
M3 upgraded the belcranks to the 13 hole that has remained and legs were changed to aluminum.
The Legend, Studio Pro and Tour Pro have the same mechanics as the M3. There have been a couple other tweaks since I worked there all for the better. Also since I left the addition of Lfrets and Aura Lites have been a very positive addition.
I personally hated to see the Millennium go away. The reasons were because 20 years ago there were few people to make those bodies and they were very expensive. The other reason is that most players wouldn't give it a chance because it wasn't wood. Bobbe Seymour didn't help that with all his "Plastic guitar" B.S. either. I loved the Milly's I had and am looking for an S12 now.
I believe that the current line of MSA guitars are the best all pull guitars available today. |
Johnny, are you sure about the move to alloy pedal bars and levers for the M2? I have an M2, 2006 that has the carbon skinned pedal bar (alloy extrusion inside), and has the alloy levers but with carbon fiber "sculpted" parts:
I had a 2007 M3 - the Burgundy one that Tommy White played on the Opry some - that had the all alloy pedal bar and knee levers. So I assumed the change happened between M2 and M3, which occurred around 06/07. But maybe like Sho-Bud it depended upon what the customer wanted or perhaps the color (were they painted after the order, or perhaps they had black ones but not other colors?).
Some more general information: My M2 weighs 36.8, the M3 weighed 39.8. The M3 did have an extra crossrod in it as it came with 9 pedals. I removed one of the pedals, but the cross rod was still in place. I assume the weight difference was mostly the pedal bar, but never weighed the two separately to see.
If the M3 was 24 1/4" scale, I never noticed the extra 1/4". And I could not say there was any difference in tone between them.
The one difference that was noticeable to me was the pedal bar - I preferred the alloy pedal bar. The reason is the means of connecting the alloy insert into the carbon shell is a bit awkward. While the mechanism to lock the bar to the legs is attached to the alloy insert, it is the carbon shell that keeps it from moving up or down as it rests on a flange built into the leg (preventing it from slipping down) and the locking knob on the leg can be adjusted to fit just above the shell, locking the bar in place (unless, of course, one extends the leg up to get more room under the guitar).I had problems with the method of securing the alloy insert into the carbon shell - it uses several allen or "rub" screws to secure it all. I've had no problem since, but very rarely gig, so the guitar mostly stays set up in my music room. A simple solution to this would be to put two short round-head bolts through the front of the carbon shell into the alloy insert (drilled and threaded for them). You loose the perfect smooth exterior of the pedal bar, but many guitars have something similar where they mount the pedal bar to the legs.
Within the past 8 years or so I've sold an '84 Zum D-10, a '73 Sho-Bud Pro II, a '75 Sho-Bud Pro II S-12, and the M3. All got compared with the same amp to the M2 I still own. To be honest, I expected to prefer the tone of the vintage Sho-Buds (the Pro II had Wallace Truetones and the Pro II had the original Sho-Bud pickup). But I thought the two Millies sounded the best, particularly with the Alumitone pickups.
So those are my experiences with Millenniums. I'm very happy with them. There were aspects to the Zumsteel mechanics I liked better than the MSA, but also some aspects of the MSA I like better. But for someone living in the warm, moist tropics, the perfectly stable body of the Millennium is a winner for me, and why it's now the only pedal steel I own. |
If memory serves the M2s were mostly carbon fiber pedal bars and knee levers. Sometime before the name change we started doing both CF and alloy depending on customer preference. Most people wanted the alloy so eventually we stopped doing carbon fiber pedal bars, knee lever caps and legs. Once all these changes were settled along with the 4×3 changer and multiple slowed belcranks it became the M3.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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