Lever Stop Wood Screw Question

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

My Williams has the LKL2 lever stop screwed into the wood apron. It always works itself a bit loose (not 'falling-off' loose). A simple periodic tightening is a perfectly ok fix. But I'd like to lock it down. I don't know if Loctite sorts of products are effective on wood screw threads.
Anyone have an answer or alternate suggestion?

edited to add: the screw hole is not at all stripped. The screw can be tightened quite well. But not quite well enough.
.
.

Brian Hollands · From: Geneva, FL USA

I don't "know" but I'd be inclined to try a dab of tightbond on the threads
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'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Ross Shafer · From: Petaluma, California

Remove the stop, fill the hole nearly to the top with baking soda. Carefully put a couple drops of thin super glue into the baking soda. Once hardened, drill a small pilot hole into the baking soda and reinstall the stop. YOu hsould have nice firm threads.

This is the kind of thing that guided my descision to stay away from wood screws of any kind in the guitars I build.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I have a Williams. This is one of its few weakness. When I have time I shall cut a small rectangle of Al, drill a hole in each corner so it can be screwed securely to the apron, and thread a hole in it so I can bolt the stop to it. Woodscrews aren't designed for lateral forces.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Fortunately this is the only stop of this sort on this 8 + 8 guitar. The problem is not acute so I'm not looking for major modifications. Just something to delay the breaking of the tension between the tight wood screw and the wood. I figure that anything at all will maybe reduce having to tighten it from twice a year to once.
But Ross -- your suggestion is totally saved in my workshop notes!
This is the least of the stability problems of this guitar and the easiest to address.

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

Aloha Jon..break a toothpick and put it in the hole..easy way! Shocked

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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Oh -- there are a bunch of fixes, if it were stripped, Larry. Thanks.
It's in perfect condition. I can tighten it to the point that I can't muscle the screwdriver another micron. I don't think I would want the screw to be tighter in the hole (for fear of splitting).

But the physical properties of a metal screw gripping the wood won't withstand repeated tapping of the lever against the stop without working itself loose after a few thousand reps. Just looking for a way to delay the start of its unwinding. As I said, if there were no solution, I can live with tightening that up a couple of times a year.
Right now, I've got some wood glue in there. It might lock things up a bit. Maybe even swell the wood a bit.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

As I tried to point out, a woodscrew waggled from side to side will work loose. It is designed to withstand longitudinal stresses, not lateral ones. Ross knows everything, so I won't dis his method. But I don't allow superglue in the house and I'm more than happy tinkering with a bit of metal if it gets me from twice a year to never Smile

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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Brian Hollands · From: Geneva, FL USA

A bit late but yes, I do mean white or yellow wood glue. It obviously won't adhear to the metal all that well but it may be enough and won't hurt anything.
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'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

Jon, it would take a larger hole but a threaded insert would be screwed in then a machine screw for the stop.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

That's some good thinking, Larry. Add a drop of Loctite to that machine screw and nothing is going nowhere. But it is more invasive a procedure than the situation calls for. I will check this assembly in a month or three. If the white glue holds that long, then I declare it an improvement and a better solution than surgery. If not more effective, then at least kinder & gentler.

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

Jon, does that nylon stop have some kind of square backer? If it's not seated firmly to the apron, I can see how it might loosen over time.

Why not take a dead on image of the screw head to see if it actually rotates over time.
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Jerry Jones

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Jerry -- it's good and square and sits quite well on the wood. It doesn't seem to me that there's any wobble in the meeting of the faces. It's snugged up now (with the wood glue on the screw) so I can't check.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

If you don’t mind an imprint on the wood, a star washer might inhibit the screw from backing out.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Perhaps install an adjustable stop, similar to the one on the other knee lever in your photo?

~Lee

Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

if the screw had enough length to it i'd be tempted to try a lock washer.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Tony -- no, I don't mind. That is a good idea. Dave -- actually, a lock washer on the screw head side might possibly add some anti-walk compression.

Lee -- I assume the reason for this stop is that a conventional stop screw on a bracket would be too long and unstable due to the limitation on placement spots for the assembly, with a couple of close-together cross shafts in the way.

All in all, I'll repeat that if I had to live in a world where this needed to be tightened a few times a year as a general maintenance punch list item, it's not at all a big deal. But every time I do it, I'm "oh, yeah -- this is why I've been chasing my F lever tuning, the last few weeks. Wonder if I can lock this down a bit better....".

I just put on my calendar for New Year's Eve: "check lever stop".
I'm a party animal.
I'll report back.
.

Steve Mueller · From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

All great suggestions. I check all screws a couple of times a year on my Williams steels as a matter of course when cleaning, lubing, etc. Then no problems. Ross' idea seems like a great one though.
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

My little old Williams S-10 (single wide body) has that same style stop on all three left moving levers - LKL, RKL, & LKV. This is an older 400 Series guitar. Thankfully, I haven't had that issue with any of them.

Like Steve, I check all the screws a couple of times a year.

I also check the handle screws on the guitar cases, the pac-a-seat, and amplifiers periodically. I have found slightly loose screws on all of that equipment at one time of another.

Also, change the batteries in your smoke/fire/carbon monoxide detectors, while you're at it!
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Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande

There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.

Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

...and change the oil in your vehicles. Very Happy

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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

typically, a drop of Elmers or any type of decent glue will keep that screw from backing out.. Thats all I ever use.. any type of glue I have lying around, and its all worked... Even on metal. You just want to keep the threads from backing out, NOT glue anything together.. Anything that takes up a bit of space between the threads and keeps them from easily turning counterclockwise will work.. I have used wood glues, school glue, silicone sealer, weatherstrip adhesive, various types of sealing putty on wood screws i didn't want backing out and everything worked well, as long as the wood itself is sound and strong most any adhesive will work...bob
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Damn. My to-do list just grew exponentially. Levers. Handles. Car. Smoke detectors.
Way more than I bargained for.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

From the picture Jerry Jones posted, There is something missing from under the plastic stop, Looks like the print of a square of metal or plastic. You may want to contact Williams, And talk to someone, To ask if there is a part missing causing the problem.

If it goes out of tune while playing the guitar. A solution needs to be found. As last course of repair, An 1 1/2" block of plastic, Stop height and width, With a rounded KL contact point, And 2 screws so nothing can turn or move.
Good Luck and Happy Steelin.

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