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Topic: Learning to play PSG on S12 using 10 string technique? |
Michael Devous
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 7:19 am |
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I inherited my Dad's custom built S12 20 years ago and recently made to decision to learn to play after recently retiring at age 64. Most instructional information I have encountered is focused on the 10 string rather than 12 string. I have enrolled in the Paul Franklin Foundation course - which again focuses on the 10 string. My thoughts are to learn 10 string technique on my S12 with the hopes of adding the additional 2 bass strings (E & G#) to the mix once I am somewhat proficient with the 10 string. Learning PSG is difficult enough little alone having the additional 2 bass strings to navigate over. Am I making this too difficult, and should I just remove the 2 additional strings or is there seasoned guidance someone might offer as to incorporating the additional 2 bass strings in my learning process? Newbie comment - it appears I have an additional (5th) triad option using the 10/11/12 string combination. For what it's worth - my B pedal is set up to raise all my G# strings (3,6 & 11) to an A; and my right knee levers lower and raise the 4th and 8th string E's only but not the 12th string E.
Any thoughts?
Mike in Montana |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 8:12 am
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Any option would be fine.
With the benefit of fifty years and hindsight, I wish I'd started with 12-strings. But the wealth of musical range with just ten strings will keep you busy for several lifetimes.
You may (or may not) ultimately start to wonder about those two low strings and the increased scope they offer; if that proves to be the case, you might wish that you'd kept them on from the start! Going from 10 to 12 can confuse the grips to which you have become accustomed.
I should know: I've ordered a 12-string guitar after decades of a D-10. Folly? We'll find out. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 8:18 am
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I like you am new to pedals, although I've been playing non pedal for over 20 years. I play a 12 string lap steel, so I'm pretty used to 12 strings and I have both a 12 String Ext E9th Williams and just got a D10 Sho-bud. One thing you can try is just remove the bottom two strings and focus on that. I did that for awhile, but I found the extra bottom strings added an additional range that didn't really interfere with my 10 string learning materials (I've also joined both Paul Franklin's Method and Travis Toy's Tutorials).
_________________
Rose D13 tuning: Cabinet by J.R. Rose with mechanics engineered by Darvin Willhoite.
Williams D10 9x9.
Mullen Pre-RP D10 8x5. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 8:52 am
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I play a 12 string and I ignore the bottom strings when I'm not using them! I see no point removing yours as they do no harm and you'll find uses for them eventually.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 8:56 am
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As one who once went from D10 to Universal 14 I know how the visual effect can be overwhelming, but if I were you, I would leave them on there and just try to ignore the 2 bottom strings until you get acclimated and comfortable with the grips on the top 10.
The bottom 2 are simply octave extensions of the G# and E strings and they will come in handy to work in as you go and understand that they function the same way as the higher octave strings do.
IMO, the 12 strings open up the tuning a lot for things you might need to do in a lower octave or better, just for low notes. Enjoy! |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 9:12 am
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I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference whether one starts on 10 or 12 strings. Personally, I would just leave all 12 on there. If it's tuned Extended E9 (strings 11&12 E&G#, respectively, as you state), then there is just the presence of the extra two strings. The rest of the guitar is exactly the same as 10-string E9. Whatever you start with, you'll get used to it.
The bottom two strings do not restrict anything - they only open up additional options. 10-string instructional material is applicable 100%. And then there are other things you can do. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 3:20 pm
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The switch from a S10 E9 to S12extE9 with a low E and G# string is supereasy. At least it felt like that to me when I upgraded from a 10string to a 12 string after felling the need for some lower notes than what was available on my 10 string.
Every triad makes sooooo much sense for the right hand fingering due to having those three E notes on string 12 8 and 4. You gonna love the sound of the spread triad on strings 11 8 5 which can easily be made into a closed triad by moving the outer two voices to strings 10 8 6.
I dont raise my 12th string to F on the E's-F lever, only string 8 and 4 are raised. Same as on your guitar.
Just imagine the instructional information showing only the top 10 strings of your guitar.
No need remove those two low strings. Once you get famliar with em, you wont be without em.
Practise those open triads on strings
12 10 6
11 8 5
10 6 4
8 5 3
and practise your right hand to go from open triad to closed triad on strings
12 11 10
11 10 8
10 8 6
8 6 5
6 5 4
5 4 3
It wont take long before these are incorporated in the muscle memory of the right hand fingers. The fingerings might feel like they are mirrored around the 8 string.
Congrats with a 12 string. Dont let the amounts of strings scare you off. It is worth the effort to learn how to use those two "extra" strings.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 3:24 pm
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I played 12-string E9th for about 30 years. It's a great tuning. The bottom 2 strings are very intuitive because they work the the same as the E and G# strings in the higher octaves.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Michael Devous
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 3:57 pm Learning to play PSG on S12 using 10 string technique?
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Excellent comment guys! Makes perfect sense to incorporate the additional 2 strings in my practicing now and to also take advantage of all the expanded combinations. As a newbie, I have been too focused on just the "1, 2, 3 and 4" groupings and did not think outside the box on all the other combinations.
I just wish I would have taken the plunge a little sooner and I regret not having an interest in this wonderful instrument while my Dad was alive and taken advantage of not only his expertise but all the other exceptional steel players that once existed in Billings, MT. Appreciate everyone's comments - just got a little more enthused about my expanded learning options!
Mike in Montana |
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Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 22 Oct 2022 6:36 pm
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Yeah I agree with the gang. Extended E9 is a great tuning. And the G# to A change on your string 11 is a plus.
Leave it--and play it. Strings 11 and 12 will develop naturally. Practice Bengt's patterns a) picked simultaneously b) arpeggiate up c) arpeggiate down. |
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Michael Devous
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2022 12:24 pm Learning to play PSG on S12 using 10 string technique?
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Ok - I'm hooked!! Adding those 2 additional bass strings just added a whole new dimension to my playing/learning. What a rich and robust sound! I have been playing around with the different combinations noted by Bengt using a 1-4-5-1 pattern practicing both simultaneously and arpeggiating up and down. So another newbie question - outside practicing, how does one determine what combinations to play and when? Are combinations more for padding/fill and are they more an individual's choice and picking style?
Mike in Montana |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2022 11:26 am Re: Learning to play PSG on S12 using 10 string technique?
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| Michael Devous wrote: |
So another newbie question - outside practicing, how does one determine what combinations to play and when? Are combinations more for padding/fill and are they more an individual's choice and picking style?
Mike in Montana |
The root and fifth of a chord will blend into the fullness of a band sound, without drawing attention to the steel. Those notes work well for pads and rhythmic reinforcement, especially in the low registers.
The thirds and sevenths will draw the listeners' ears more towards noticing the steel, and can cause voicing problems against other instruments in the low registers if you're not careful. For example, a rhythm guitar's open G chord has a low B (the third of G). You wouldn't want to double that note in most cases.
When playing a solo or fills, harmony voicings are totally a matter of individual style.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Michael Devous
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2022 6:49 am Learning to play PSG on S12 using 10 string technique?
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Ahh - "power chords"... Obviously, I am gaining an additional root/fifth option on the 12 string with the 12-10 strings. Is it always better to use the lower option (12-10) or generally, when would one decide to use the 12-10 vs 10-8 power chord option or even 5-4 option?
Thanks for sharing your insights and wisdom Bob! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2022 1:33 pm
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There's also pedals down, with the root on string 11.
I always lowered my 12th string to D on my 3rd pedal "C", making a great power chord on 12C-11B-9 with higher notes on strings 7 and 6.
Similar things can be found by lowering 12 to C# on the "F" lever, though it sounds a little bit flabby. I had both for a long time and discovered that I used the "C" pedal trick more often.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Michael Devous
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2022 3:23 pm Learning to play PSG on S12 using 10 string technique?
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Again - great advice Bob! Yes, forgot about my B pedal also raising my 11th string from G# to A to get a 12/11 power chord. Since my S12 was inherited from my Dad and was how he had things set up, I will probably leave my pedals and knee levers as is for now - at least until I become a lot more proficient.
Thanks again for sharing... |
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