P/P Rod Slack

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

On a string that is raised and is lowered, I know P/P rod slack & I understand P/P rod slack. It is not mysterious.

On my Uni 12 (highly modified) I am lowering String 8 (E > D) on RKR (P6, but on a lever) and have the F lever (E > F) on LKL .
I know that there needs to be slack in the F lever raise rod to allow the travel of the lower. No big deal with the standard E9 E > D# lowers. But because of the full step lower on 8, the LKL gets pulled inward a lot during the lower. In order for LKL to not hit my left leg during the lower and interfere with the lower's travel I need to set it way, way over to the left. The A pedal + F position is very awkward.
Other setup options have been considered but there are strong reasons why I need to keep it as is.

So....Is there an ingenious trick for dealing with this slack on the raise that I haven't picked up on yet? I assume 'it is what it is' and I can't see any workaround. Physical facts are physical facts.
But I know that there are some brilliant P/P people out there.....

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

You can compensate for a large amount of required slack in a raise by increasing the leverage advantage on that raise. On most PP setups the E9 string 8 raise has the hook in the middle hole of the changer. By moving it to the top hole closest to the axle it will increase the bell crank's leverage and reduce the required slack. I have the exact same string 8 E>D change and it works great set up as noted, without any unwanted or awkward movement of the F lever. The slack in the raise after I engage and release the lower is less than 3/16" (see the pic below). The F lever doesn't move when I engage the lower unless I push it over first to clear the slack, even then it just moves it back to the normal neutral position. Also worth noting that the timing between strings 8 & 4 on the E>F raise is very tight as set up on my guitar. Not particularly ingenious but it does perform the required trick.

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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Thanks Ian. That's the puller hole I'm using. 4, 8 & 11 are nicely sync'd. I have a slightly larger slack space at the collar than you but not a lot. My pull rod does waste some energy when it moves, due to being poorly bent, from the high pass-thru guide swivel down to the changer. I think I can gain a tiny bit more efficiency by fine tuning the rod bend.

Part of my problem may relate to my having short legs that make the position of the F lever LKL a bit more troublesome (on all of my guitars).
I'm going to spend more time trying to fine tune things, including lever angle. Maybe I can gain some insight.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I suggest calling Kelcey at Emmons. They've done all sorts of tweaking for individual players - and he solved a similar LKL problem for me, with my ancient ankles that feel like welded steel posts! He's talked players through adjustment procedures over the phone just based on a description!
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Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

I haven't wanted to bother Kelcey, Jim, but that's really a good idea. He is one of the people who has put it in my head that there is conventional wisdom, re: push pulls but then there are people who have worked around those "limitations" and solved problems.
A ReSound'65 is not likely in my future (although a 12 string will make me stop and think....) but from day 1 I've been impressed by the thinking and engineering involved in creating this 21st century 1965 guitar.
But I still fear that most of the issue here is my anatomy. My LKL move with my 'stature' is a short throw, leaving my leg in the way of the slack required for the lower. We'll see.

Norman Evans · From: Tennessee

I play 10 string sort of uni setup with this exact change on the 8th string. You can see in this video how far mine LKL moves, but it works great for me. I'm about 5'8".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H2jloUZzFk

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Norman -- thank you! The visuals are very helpful.

I moved AB&C over one position to the right and added a zero pedal because the standard 1 2 & 3 pedal positions were a stretch for me on this guitar. So it seems I've left the LKL out in left field. I thought that angle adjustments would take care of things but now I think that this may be the problem.
I am thinking that I might move the whole LKL assembly from between the A & B shafts to between the B & C. Combined with angle adjustment, this might work better for me and better accommodate the rod slack.

I need to spend some time thinking about it (not the sort of thing you do, rashly).

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Yeah -- I'm leaning in to this idea of moving the LKL lever over to between B&C pedal shafts. Moving it closer to the center, closer to the knee, means that I can incorporate the slack movement of the lever during the RKR movement into the upward backswing of the lever instead of it being a lateral move toward the knee.
In my foggy mind, at least.
Might find time today. I'll report.

Norman Evans · From: Tennessee

Jon, I like the LKL being where it is because I rock my foot left and right on the A&B pedals. The extra room to left helps me to stay off the B pedal when I want to just use the A pedal.
Since you've moved AB&C to the right you probably do need to move the LKL. You can see where my pedals line up according to the keyhead.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

This was pretty much a success. I was able to cut a small fraction of that slack -- it is down right around Ian's 3/16" but that was just some fine tuning. It wasn't that much more, before.
The difference maker was in realizing that the lever was hanging too far to the left to begin with (for me) and WAY too far after moving the pedals rightward one slot.
LKL has always been a difficult placement. The arc of my leg movement combined with the shortish distance from my right knee to left knee when fully open makes lever placement far more fussy than I'd like. But now I've got a much better compromise. I'm thinking about a flag which may or may not help.

And the great news is that I had the pleasure of having to do things twice because of an unintended consequence of moving the lever shaft. Not that anyone would ever need to be able to remove the pedal rod from the B pedal but if I ever did want to consider such an odd thing......well, it's a good thing I didn't initially put the bracket & shaft anyplace that might totally interfere. Nope, not me.

Rolling Eyes

Thanks for the assistance. It helped a lot with my thought process.

Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

i could never reach the left knee lever on my s10 p/p. i made a flag similar the the one that is often on the right knee right and it worked well.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

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