Flat3

Randy Cook · From: Mechanicsville, Virginia, USA

To create an Eminor in the open E you have to flatten the third note in the scale. I think that is a G. However, I am told use pedal A to raise the 6th string….B. I am so confused. What am I missing?

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Basic example:

Open tuning 3rd fret. A pedal gives you an E note on strings 5 or 10 [root or 1]
4 or 8 strings no pedals/levers gives you a G note. That's your b3.
3 and/or 6 strings no pedals gives you a B note. [5]

EGB, 1,3b,5 = E minor triad. Just one of several ways to form a minor chord on the E9 tuning, but don't want to create more confusion with all that right now.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Keeping it simple. Pedal A third fret for ‘Em. Same grips as the major chords

Pat Chong · From: New Mexico, USA

Pressing the A pedal, although giving a minor chord, at the nut it is not Em, but rather C#m. Number 6, in the key of E. Jerry is correct, that at the 3rd fret, it is Em. Some pedal steels have a pedal that lowers the G# strings (3 & 6) to G. That would give you the Em at the nut.
Working with the pedal steel, there's more than one way to obtain a chord. For example, a diminished chord is 1, b3 and b5, right? So instead of having to flatten 3 and 5, just press the lever that raises E to F (1 to 1#). At the nut, you now have Fdim (strings 3-6), raising the E to F automaticly flattened 3 and 5, relative to the F note. It is a sideways method of obtaining a new chord, but helps one understand what the pedals/levers do in a different manner.......Pat.

I guess my point is to keep track of which note goes where, to know what the resulting chord is.

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

the A pedal gets you the relative minor. Em is relative to G, so 3rd fret (adding an E note to a G chord).
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster

Randy Cook · From: Mechanicsville, Virginia, USA

You guys know this stuff inside out! I finally understand that in the open E , the A pedal does not give you an Em……it gives you the 6m for the E chord. At the 3rd fret you get the relative minor for G….‘Em.

I did not understand how a pedal that raises a sting could “flatten” anything.

Thanks for the help.

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

Randy, on the fly you can just think: "3 frets above the no-pedals position, use A pedal."

Short quiz.
1) How would I play an A minor chord?
2) I used pedal A at the 11th fret. What minor chord am I playing?

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

You can do it at the open position but not with the A pedal. If you a lever that drops the sixth string a full step and can split tune it to a G with a the B pedal then it would work there. It would be awkward for me to use it but it does exist. BUT NOT WITH THE A PEDAL!!
_________________
Mark T

Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

Em open position:

Raise your 7th string (F#) to a G using what ever lever you have that raises the F# a half step. You will now have:

4th string E open
5th string B open
7th string G open

You will now an have Em chord open....E,G,B

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

The E9 neck chord chart:
https://712abb0a-473a-4d1c-bf1c-45934cb76212.filesusr.com/ugd/c8990e_a76e1da5b1d54bde8bc67811eadee5da.pdf

Make sure to compare your copedent with the defaults for the chart.

Also, check out the rest of the Beginners Page brought to you by TheForum:
https://dhdube.wixsite.com/psgbeginner/home

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Relative minors are the reason for Mr. Emmons and Mr. Day to split 1 pedal to A & B pedals.

As you go down the neck the A pedal provides the relative minor, with no bar movement. 1st fret F With A pedal = Dm. 3rd fret G, with A pedal = Em. 5th Fret A with A pedal = F#m. 8th fret C A pedal = Am. 10 fret D, A pedal = Bm. Open and 12th fret = C#m.

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

The poster is not asking how to get a "relative minor". According to his posting he wants to create an E minor from an E major.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

E major - pedals A and B at the 7th fret; (4,5,6).

Either:
Stay where you are and, along with A & B, lower the 5th string a half-step = E minor,

Or:

Slide up three frets (to the 10th) and, keeping A and B down, there's E minor too (but on strings 5,6,7)

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

There is a topic "Relative Minor Explains and Mode" post on page 2 here on Steel Guitar section.
===Sorry I Can not make it Link to click on. ====
There is a post on this topic, About a Carter steel that has an O pedal that lowered G# to G, So the Relative Minor could be played on the same fret, The Major Chord is played with bar.

Here is a picture of an old Chord Chart, Prior to 2000, That with A-B-C pedals and 2 knee levers, Lever that lowers 4-8 to D# and lever that raises 4-8 to F. And the 3 ways to make an Em.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Don't forget the 3rd way of getting a minor, by lowering the E strings.

Just as we have three majors we can slide between using the same grip (pedals up, A/F, AB) the equivalent minor set is:

lower 6 a half step
up 3 frets with A
(both as discussed above) then
up 5 frets with the E lever

I go up and down through both sequences as a warm-up, starting at the nut and working up the neck a fret at a time.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

To the original poster:

You are correct that the notes of the E minor chord are E, G, and B. So yes - in theory, the G# of the E major chord is lowered to G. On a piano, that is absolutely the way to view it, because there is exactly one way to make an Em chord on a piano (within an octave) because there is an exact one-to-one correspondence between each note on the scale and each piano key.

But pedal steel is very, very different from a piano, physically. The same notes occur in many places on a guitar, and in even more places on a pedal steel. And with a pedal steel, you have a combination of the open strings, the bar, and the physical way strings are raised and lowered on your guitar.

In any case, it is not correct that the only way (or even main way) to get that chord on E9 pedal steel is to lower the G# to G on the open strings (no bar) or at the 12th fret one octave up. As already mentioned, there is a way to do that on an E9 pedal steel if you have a pedal or lever to lower the 6th and/or 3rd string to G. There are various ways to do that physically, but that change is not one of the de rigeur 'standard changes' on a typical 3-pedal, 4-5 lever guitar. Some guitars have that change, but some don't. I personally like having that change available, but I was literally years in before my guitars had it available.

And, BTW, again just considering the open-string E chord with the G# lowered to G on string 6, there are different voicings of the chord available - the root voicing is strings 8, 6, and 5. But strings 10, 8, and 6 give the 2nd inversion, and strings 6, 5, and 4 give the 1st inversion.

But that is far from the only way to get an Em chord. Since the A pedal is on any standard E9 setup, a very common way to get Em is to go to the 3rd fret, engage the A pedal to raise the D on strings 10 and 5 to E. Then you can get Em = E, G, B on strings 10, 8, and 6 and one octave higher on strings 5, 4, and 3. You can get the 2nd inversion starting on string 8, and the 3rd inversion starting on string 6. The A-pedal approach to minors is probably the first approach most people learn.

As already stated, if you go to the 8th fret and lower the E=>Eb lever, which lowers strings 4 and 8 from C to B, you get Em = E, G, B on strings 6, 5, and 4, and the first inversion on strings 5, 4, and 3, and an octave lower on strings 10, 8, and 6; and the 2nd inversion on strings 8, 6, and 5.

And as Bobby's chart shows, with the B and C pedals engaged, you get Em = E, G, B on strings 7, 6, and 5; the 1st inversion on strings 6, 5, and 4, and the 2nd inversion on strings 5, 4, and 3.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat on pedal steel. Other grips and/or additional pedal/lever changes can add to the palette of chord voicings. But these are probably the most 'standard' ways to approach minor chords. After a while, if you practice a lot and focus on what you're actually doing, the logic behind this kind of stuff should start to make sense. As Bobby's diagram shows - even for just this one case, there are interval relationships between the various ways to get chords - and that is true for most of the common chords encountered.

Larry Hobson · From: Valley Grande (Selma) Al USA

Interesting info. My only input would be in the interest of lowering the confusing level you will encounter further down the road as you try to figure out more advanced chords is to study/master the number system. Apply it to the strings,ex. Open major chord ,8 string is the 1 , 6 string is a 3 and 5 string is a 5. A and B down you have string 6 is a 1 ,5 is a 3 and 4 is a 5. NOW if you're looking for a minor,you know to flatten the 3rd note .This is just enough info to be confusing but if it is Greek to you now it won't be latter. You may already be up to speed with the number system. If not please check it out and apply it along with lettered notes. You will be miles ahead . I find it difficult to talk chord structure with anyone without some inclusion of numbers. Very difficult to have. Anyone please add thoughts to this rant.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Good point, Larry. Once you've grasped relative scale-tones and can refer to them by number, everything gets much clearer.

It's just very basic theory, but invaluable.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I totally agree that it's a good idea to learn the number system for chord progressions as well as chord interval numbers, but the present case just calls for chord interval numbers.

Numbers applied to this situation are very simple: The interval numbers for the Em chord are 1(E) b3(G) and 5(B). The good thing about chord interval numbers is that they are the same for every chord of the same type, regardless of root. Numbers lend themselves to stringed instruments like guitar and steel because one can just visualize different chords by moving the chord roots up and down the neck.

For a major chord, it's 1 3 5, for a 6th chord 1 3 5 6, for a maj7 it's 1 3 5 7, for a dominant 7th (b7) chord it's 1 3 5 b7, for a minor 7th it's 1 b3 5 b7, diminished 1 b3 b5, augmented 1 3 #5, and so on.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic