| Author |
Topic: Why no bronze tone bars and parts? |
Robert W Wilson
From:
Palisade, Western Colorado
|
Posted 8 Sep 2022 3:14 pm |
|
A bronze tone bar seems like a great idea, but don't see them. Is there a problem or maybe the material is just too expensive? I'd like to try making one but not if there is no benefit.
I used to experiment with tunings and the wound strings would hang up on the aluminum nut. Thinking bronze's self lubricating properties would help, I made one.
It works great except I don't change tunings anymore (too confusing for a beginner). Shiny and beautiful when first machined it rapidly oxidizes but I like the look on my 86 year old epi.
Didn't have enough material for a bridge so made a beefier ally one with a bronze insert. Big brass screws sandwich the bridge, aluminum plate and wood tightly. Raised the strings and horseshoe as much as possible. It sounds awesome. Dunno if bronze plays a part or not.
Embarrassingly dirty guitar, it rides under my desk at work. I don't know what they were thinking with 2 pots on the wrong side. If you have one of these a work-around is put orings on the shaft under the knobs and it adds friction so your hand doesn't change things during play.
I really want to use this guitar as a model for my first build. I add up the time, cost, possibility it may disappoint and realize I should just buy Clinesmith's Sweet Joaquin, before he retires!
 |
|
|
 |
John Haspert
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 9 Sep 2022 5:02 pm Using Brass or Bronze
|
|
I have used “Bell Bronze” for some parts like Bridges and Nuts with good success. I have also made numerous Tone Bars out of different grades of Brasses and Bronzes. The Bell Bronze grades have been the best. Many have cited that Bronzes can wear too quickly. However, there are grades that are highly wear resistant. One of them used to be known as Ampco #6. It was used on large scale mining equipment such as rails and shoes on Draglines. My favorites are made of this alloy. I actually got Red Rhodes to try one, but it took a lot of convincing, he was worried about wear. However, he was amazed at the tone and sustain. I still have and use that bar. There are no grooves or signs of wear. Granted I am not a pro player and don’t play with that bar 20 hours per week. I would offer that even if one needed to re-polish the bar every 6 to 12 months…..for me, I just love the way it lets the strings ring and sing; it would be well worth it.
_________________
Pedal Steel Guitar is "Music from Heaven" |
|
|
|
John Hyland
From:
South Australia
|
Posted 9 Sep 2022 5:22 pm Re: Using Brass or Bronze
|
|
| John Haspert wrote: |
| I have used “Bell Bronze” for some parts like Bridges and Nuts with good success. I have also made numerous Tone Bars out of different grades of Brasses and Bronzes. The Bell Bronze grades have been the best. Many have cited that Bronzes can wear too quickly. However, there are grades that are highly wear resistant. One of them used to be known as Ampco #6. It was used on large scale mining equipment such as rails and shoes on Draglines. My favorites are made of this alloy. I actually got Red Rhodes to try one, but it took a lot of convincing, he was worried about wear. However, he was amazed at the tone and sustain. I still have and use that bar. There are no grooves or signs of wear. Granted I am not a pro player and don’t play with that bar 20 hours per week. I would offer that even if one needed to re-polish the bar every 6 to 12 months…..for me, I just love the way it lets the strings ring and sing; it would be well worth it. |
Did you mean ampco 8. I don’t think there is. “6” |
|
|
|
John Haspert
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 9 Sep 2022 6:03 pm You may be right….
|
|
I may have slightly misspoke. There were a number of proprietary alloys used back then. The #8 was most certainly one that we studied. There were also others that were “custom” made for very specific applications and customer requirements. In my prior life, I was a research chemist studying lubricant additive response on a wide range of alloys under very high pressures and friction. At the end of the project, I inherited a bunch of metals when we used in the studies. Some years later, I started making the parts from the remnants leftover. We did have a range of commercially available alloys and some that were still “on the drawing board” and likely never made it to production. Thinking back, I had more than one form of the Ampco 8. Some, like the 6, I had limited amounts of the alloy to work with and some were provided by OEM’s with whatever ID that particular alloy was called in their lab or facility. So that ID may not be accurate.
_________________
Pedal Steel Guitar is "Music from Heaven" |
|
|
|
Dan Otranto
From:
Vermont, USA
|
Posted 10 Sep 2022 2:11 pm
|
|
| Raw stock of bronze for flat bar seems incredibly expensive, but round bar stock seems a lot more affordable but still pretty expensive, I'm seeing about $40 per 1 inch x 12 inch round bar, which would for 3 tone bars...you'd have to charge a lot of money per bar to make it worth it I suppose? I'm just looking on ebay for the cheapest, that might be some sort of mystery meat bronze. It's about 2x expensive for the cheaper grades with online metals....McMaster is always crazy expensive. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 11 Sep 2022 12:26 am Re: Why no bronze tone bars and parts?
|
|
| Robert W Wilson wrote: |
A bronze tone bar seems like a great idea, but don't see them. Is there a problem or maybe the material is just too expensive? I'd like to try making one but not if there is no benefit.
I used to experiment with tunings and the wound strings would hang up on the aluminum nut. Thinking bronze's self lubricating properties would help, I made one.
|
Not all grades of bronze are self-lubricating. The self-lubricating quality is due to the addition of lead in the alloy, or in some cases, the method of manufacture. Sintered bronze, often used for bearings, has a porous makeup, to which oil is added during manufacture for lubricity. I wouldn't think bronze would be particularly advantageous over steel because wear might be an issue, as would the tendency to tarnish. But I've seen players use brass, which is softer and also tarnishes quite easily. |
|
|
|
Robert W Wilson
From:
Palisade, Western Colorado
|
Posted 11 Sep 2022 7:39 am
|
|
Thanks John, John, Dan, and Donny; I had to look up “sintered” and got lost in alloy land, again. Bronze is 5000 years old, no simple mix of copper and tin. Most modern bronze has no tin.
My nut is lead free aluminum bronze #954 similar to the Ampco #8. The raw stock has a pleasant but rather muffled ring to it. Bell bronze (high tin) is hard to locate except as ingots. If I get a hold of some I’ll sand cast and machine a bar for kicks. I suspect it’ll have voids and end up as a desk ornament  .
It’s repeatably stated (arguably) that the materials we build electric guitars with have little to do with tone. My psg sounds quite different with various pedal/lever engagements, which send vibrations through different pathways of materials. Open strings, no pedals is nice but pedals down is were I hang out, as it sounds and feels best (thicker, fuller). This complexity is what makes steel guitars so fun and you can never reach the end of the adventure! |
|
|
|
Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
|
Posted 11 Sep 2022 8:21 pm
|
|
Since I live in an area where at one time the was several machine shops to support the coal mining industry, A few "Government Jobs" was steel guitar bars.
Below is a picture of my bar collection. I have got bars given to me, I have bought some, And got some in trades.
The bar on the Left is some sort of brass mix that gets nearly black from handling with sweaty hands. The 2nd bar from the Left is a Brass or Bronze mix bar. It has never dulled since I have got it. It has always been shiny.
Since I got a Tone Block 202 amp, I need to get these bars out and try them again for tone. |
|
|
|
Dan Otranto
From:
Vermont, USA
|
Posted 12 Sep 2022 8:15 am Re: Why no bronze tone bars and parts?
|
|
| Robert W Wilson wrote: |
A bronze tone bar seems like a great idea, but don't see them. Is there a problem or maybe the material is just too expensive? I'd like to try making one but not if there is no benefit.
I used to experiment with tunings and the wound strings would hang up on the aluminum nut. Thinking bronze's self lubricating properties would help, I made one.
It works great except I don't change tunings anymore (too confusing for a beginner). Shiny and beautiful when first machined it rapidly oxidizes but I like the look on my 86 year old epi.
Didn't have enough material for a bridge so made a beefier ally one with a bronze insert. Big brass screws sandwich the bridge, aluminum plate and wood tightly. Raised the strings and horseshoe as much as possible. It sounds awesome. Dunno if bronze plays a part or not.
Embarrassingly dirty guitar, it rides under my desk at work. I don't know what they were thinking with 2 pots on the wrong side. If you have one of these a work-around is put orings on the shaft under the knobs and it adds friction so your hand doesn't change things during play.
I really want to use this guitar as a model for my first build. I add up the time, cost, possibility it may disappoint and realize I should just buy Clinesmith's Sweet Joaquin, before he retires!
|
Those knobs are killer. I think they put the same ones on the first Epiphone Coronets. |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 13 Sep 2022 12:04 pm
|
|
I like bonze and brass. Brass is much cheaper than bronze.
One problem I seem to see on PSG's is that many of the builders either didn't know or chose to disrespect fundamental concepts on how certain metals interact when friction occurs:
- Steel on steel will run well, especially if ONE of them is "hardened" (heat-treated).
- Bronze and brass will work well against steel.
BUT:
- Aluminum tends to bond, stick, crate burrs when running against other aluminum or even other hard metals like steel (heat-treated too).
I have seen aluminum fingers all chewed up on the inner bore running on a polished steel shaft... on MAJOR brands. It's no wonder.
Personally, I feel changer fingers ought to be made from brass. They would also interact better with the strings.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
|
Posted 17 Sep 2022 12:42 pm
|
|
| The GFI Stainless steel, Sintering process made fingers is the best fingers I have seen on a steel guitar. The strings leave no marks on the fingers. I wonder if these fingers is what give the guitar it sustain. |
|
|
|
John Hyland
From:
South Australia
|
Posted 18 Sep 2022 2:00 pm
|
|
| J D Sauser wrote: |
BUT:
- Aluminum tends to bond, stick, crate burrs when running against other aluminum or even other hard metals like steel (heat-treated too)
... J-D. |
I wonder if galvanic corrosion is coming into play here. Ie where dissimilar metals can become cathode and anode. In this instance Aluminum can become sacrificial and begin to corrode more than otherwise would be expected.
This effect is more pronounced in wet environments ( humidity?) and a source of electron flow (pickup?)
Just a theory for relevance to PSG. |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 19 Sep 2022 2:49 pm
|
|
| John Hyland wrote: |
| J D Sauser wrote: |
BUT:
- Aluminum tends to bond, stick, crate burrs when running against other aluminum or even other hard metals like steel (heat-treated too)
... J-D. |
I wonder if galvanic corrosion is coming into play here. Ie where dissimilar metals can become cathode and anode. In this instance Aluminum can become sacrificial and begin to corrode more than otherwise would be expected.
This effect is more pronounced in wet environments ( humidity?) and a source of electron flow (pickup?)
Just a theory for relevance to PSG. |
As far as aluminum on aluminum binding or ripping, no, it has nothing to do with galvanic corrosion. In metallurgy and mechanical applications you are taught which metals run well against others.
Aluminum being a very pasty yet "dry" material tends to bond or rip.
The are charts and even books about that.
Aluminum is one of the most problematic ones.
Galvanic corrosion occurs when you have a stainless steel on aluminum.
Example: A stainless screw into aluminum. One metal will -for the lack of a better term "suck" the non-corrosive properties out of the other one. Humidity and salts (like beach side salinity) will further enhance the effect and usually damage the weaker metal (aluminum in that example).
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
John Hyland
From:
South Australia
|
Posted 20 Sep 2022 1:26 am
|
|
| Hi JD I didn’t say alum on alum as this cannot cause galvanic action I was referring to your comment of alum fingers on polished metal axle |
|
|
|
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
|
Posted 29 Nov 2022 11:49 am
|
|
| I agree with JD regarding aluminum. I had a PSG whereby the cross shafts seized up. Disassembly showed aluminum on aluminum and oil created an aluminum slurry eventually. I wound up pressing in bronze bushings in the aluminum sides. Never seized again. |
|
|
|
