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Topic: Mixing Your Steel Through the Board on a Sound System |
Larry Ball
From:
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 11 Sep 2022 9:20 pm |
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I thought this might be the best location to put this thread regarding the above topic.
I was playing a gig last night when I had this debate regarding the Steel going through the Board. I was asked to DI my steel and if my amp had the right connections for that. I always “Mic” my amp as I believe you lose control of your tone going into the mains and monitors once the sound guy gets through with it.
My thought is you control your tone via the controls on your amp (among other things) then Mic it to the board with the board EQ at neutral . All the sound guy should do is adjust your volume through the mains and monitors. I don’t want them playing with my Channel Strip trying to eq it to their own ear.
We have special speakers in our steel amps (Peavey) plus our own controls to get the tone we want then Mic the speaker cone as required.
I was told the sound guy controls everyone else, (fiddle, rhythm, vocals, drums and lead guitar). My thought is the others can deal with their own equipment etc.
But I don’t think I was successful with my logic in the debate..
I also have my own home studio and record directly through my Tube Channel Strip then into the interface to the DAW.. which gives me a good sound on play back..
I would like some comments from other players..
Thanks..Larry
_________________
Sho~Bud SD10 LDG, Show-Pro SD10 LDG, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100 MK11, Telonic's F100 Multi-Taper Super Pro V/P, Wayne Brown “Custom Designed Amp” |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Sep 2022 11:55 pm
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My first thought is that a PA is not a hifi, so there's little chance of preserving the tone you've created.
Second, if the guy knows what he's doing, let him do it his way. If not, it doesn't matter as he'll louse it up anyway.
Do audiences care about tone? They either like the band or they drink some more until they like the band.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Edward Dixon
From:
Crestview Florida
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Posted 12 Sep 2022 5:18 am
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I see this as six of one and half dozen of the other. What difference does it make weather you give the guy a direct signal from the amp or a signal from a mic in front of the speaker? They both end up in the same place. For me getting a mic in exactly the right spot is more trouble than it's worth.
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"Faith don't need no second opinion." |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 12 Sep 2022 5:54 am
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I'm with Ian,
If the sound person is a real pro, do it their way and you'll be fine.
If the sound person is lacking, it won't matter either way.
h |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2022 1:03 pm
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A miked speaker and a DI will often sound very different. I would say if you've spent the time and energy to create a rig that you love the sound of, mike the speaker.
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http://pedalsteelpodcast.wordpress.com |
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Jim Fogle
From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2022 1:29 pm Give The Sound Guy What He Requests
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I would give the sound guy whichever signal he requests. Front of house sound is his job.
The sound guy has the responsibility of making the band sound good and to fit the establishment. To perform his job the sound man needs to blend and mix the pedal steel guitar audio signal together with the band vocals and instruments while also eliminating whatever frequency limitations the establishment has. You can't tell how your instrument sounds from the front-of-house or audience perspective.
One compromise I can suggest is to ask the sound man to accept both the microphone and direct input audio signals. Then blend the two audio signals together with a minimum of equalization.
_________________
Remembering Harold Fogle (1945-1999) Pedal Steel Player
Dell laptop Win 10, i3, 8GB, 480GB
2024 BiaB UltraPlus PAK
Cakewalk by Bandlab software & Zoom MRS-8 hardware DAWs
Zoom MRS-8 8 Track Hardware DAW |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2022 8:56 pm Re: Give The Sound Guy What He Requests
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| Jim Fogle wrote: |
I would give the sound guy whichever signal he requests. Front of house sound is his job.
The sound guy has the responsibility of making the band sound good and to fit the establishment. To perform his job the sound man needs to blend and mix the pedal steel guitar audio signal together with the band vocals and instruments while also eliminating whatever frequency limitations the establishment has. You can't tell how your instrument sounds from the front-of-house or audience perspective.
One compromise I can suggest is to ask the sound man to accept both the microphone and direct input audio signals. Then blend the two audio signals together with a minimum of equalization. |
I agree. I quit worrying about sound guys years ago. They are going to do what sounds good to them, and you might as well accept it. Sound is a talent, just like playing an instrument. Some are good at it, and some not. That standing there saying "check one two three", or having you play by yourself, is as useless as a screen door on a submarine. I think you have to have the playing and singing going to make the adjustments accurately. If you ever get a chance, watch Justin Trevino do a sound check. The band plays a song and Justin sings a few lines and they continue playing in a one chord while he tells the sound guy what he wants. He then starts singing again and this repeats a few times until they are satisfied and that's it. Of course, this is for what they are hearing on stage. FOH is still subject to the sound guy.
RC |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 13 Sep 2022 12:29 am
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| Bryan Daste wrote: |
| A miked speaker and a DI will often sound very different. I would say if you've spent the time and energy to create a rig that you love the sound of, mike the speaker. |
What Bryan said. The signal from the line out of an amp WILL sound very different than that same signal feeding the amp's speaker will. If the sound guy doesn't have the understanding or experience to get this concept there's a whole lot more to worry about than just your tone in the mix. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2022 5:02 am
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| Bryan Daste wrote: |
| A miked speaker and a DI will often sound very different. I would say if you've spent the time and energy to create a rig that you love the sound of, mike the speaker. |
What Bryan said. The signal from the line out of an amp WILL sound very different than that same signal feeding the amp's speaker will. If the sound guy doesn't have the understanding or experience to get this concept there's a whole lot more to worry about than just your tone in the mix. |
I agree. In the end, the sound guy have the final say. I've seen a lot of amateur sound guys that have an idea that everything is supposed to "blend together" and if you add some dynamics in a fill they will turn you down. There again, I just set things up so it sounds good to me on stage, and play.
RC |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 13 Sep 2022 5:25 am
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The most I will do usually is to let the sound person know that I don't want a lot of bright top end on the steel guitar. It should be sweet and not shrill. Those who don't have a lot of experience mixing a band with steel may think it's supposed to have a screaming top end and that's not what I go for. Other than that, it's out of my hands and if, after the show, a few audience members say they loved the steel, well I take that as a good sign.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 13 Sep 2022 5:29 am
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| Rick Campbell wrote: |
I agree. In the end, the sound guy have the final say. I've seen a lot of amateur sound guys that have an idea that everything is supposed to "blend together" and if you add some dynamics in a fill they will turn you down. There again, I just set things up so it sounds good to me on stage, and play.
RC |
The grownup approach 😎
As a long-time sound engineer from the days when "engineer" meant something, when I am onstage my best option is to let go of what I can't do anything about and let the sound folk learn at their own level and pace, and just focus on having a great time with my buds onstage. People are used to the sound sucking, but scowls on the bandstand are a terminal buzzkill for all involved. |
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Chris Tarrow
From:
Maplewood, NJ
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Posted 13 Sep 2022 6:04 am
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Are you using a Nashville 112? If so, have a listen to the XLR out on your home recording rig and see how it sounds. It can be to your benefit to go direct. A hot mic on a small stage will end up full of drums. If it sounds bad, just tell the sound guy the DI sounds terrible and is unusable.
The truth is, a dynamic microphone an inch in front of your speaker is not hearing what you're hearing. By the time it's in the mix it may not sound that different than the XLR out. |
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Larry Ball
From:
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2022 4:33 pm
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Thanks Chris,
Yes I have listened to the tone via the amp XLR. Actually my best sound comes my Tube Channel Strip.
Getting back to my thread. Thank you Gentlemen for your comments, We had a better sound the next evening after a good sound check was down. Over the years I have experienced sound guys good and bad as you said. I guess being a “Tone Junkie” I pay a lot of attention to that. Again it is my personal preference to mic the amp versus a DI.
Thanks again for your comments..
Larry
_________________
Sho~Bud SD10 LDG, Show-Pro SD10 LDG, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100 MK11, Telonic's F100 Multi-Taper Super Pro V/P, Wayne Brown “Custom Designed Amp” |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 15 Sep 2022 1:29 pm
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It won’t matter with a good sound man while a bad one will figure out a way to make either one sound bad..:
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2022 4:42 pm
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| John Macy wrote: |
| It won’t matter with a good sound man while a bad one will figure out a way to make either one sound bad..: |
I agree. That's why I don't say anything. Just so I can hear myself and enough of the band to keep up with what I'm doing, I'll make it work. Good players don't have to, nor want to, have volume contest on stage. That happens sometimes and they drag the sound man, who is often innocent and doing a good job, into the middle of it. Drama. I like drama free music. 
RC |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 4 Nov 2022 7:47 am
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| Bryan Daste wrote: |
| A miked speaker and a DI will often sound very different. I would say if you've spent the time and energy to create a rig that you love the sound of, mike the speaker. |
Exactly. If you have adjusted your amp's tone controls to produce the desired tone from the limited and varied frequency response of its speaker, taking a direct line out by definition cannot reproduce that tone, but WILL introduce unwanted artifacts.
In most cases the best possible sound reproduction of an amplified instrument will come from a high quality mic, flat or near-flat EQ at the mixer, and a proper, full-range, well-equalized speaker system.
There are many valid uses for direct inputs, particularly with feedback-prone acoustical instruments such as guitar, acoustic bass, and fiddle, and with extended-range instruments such as keyboards and electric bass. Many top recording and touring engineers prefer to take BOTH mic'ed and direct signal from the bass amp in order to best support the bass in the mix, while VERY few such engineers are interested in direct feeds from electric guitar amps. When they do, it is to save the hassle of properly mic'ing the amps, and not to improve the mix.
With the advent of quality, affordable flat-pack mics such as the Senn e960 that sound excellent hanging on the amp there is no use anyone crying about stage space for mics.
With modern in-ear monitor system it is now possible to perform with no amplifiers at all on stage, with the band members hearing themselves in earbuds and the only amplified sound coming from the main speakers. This has become popular with some artists and audio heads as it reduces background noise in vocal and horn mics but requires lots of really good gear and absolutely superb mixing folk to look after the monitors and mains and get it right.
Last edited by Dave Grafe on 4 Nov 2022 8:29 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 4 Nov 2022 7:54 am
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Just to clarify, when you adjust the controls on your amp, does that also adjust the line out signal or does that stay flat except for any on board effects like reverb? I think I know the answer to that but just checking with more experienced players here. Either way, I understand the general point that it will still not sound the same as mic'ing the amp.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 4 Nov 2022 8:06 am
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| Jim Cohen wrote: |
| Just to clarify, when you adjust the controls on your amp, does that also adjust the line out signal or does that stay flat except for any on board effects like reverb? I think I know the answer to that but just checking with more experienced players here. Either way, I understand the general point that it will still not sound the same as mic'ing the amp. |
Most amps only send signal post-EQ, which means the tone settings you dialed up to make your 12" or 15" speaker(s) sound right are now going down a line that is feeding a full-range multi-band speaker system so your audio head has to undial your settings to get the same-ish sound from the PA. No good can come of that.
A few bass amps have a PRE/POST EQ switch with the line feed but this has more to do with the subtleties of bass frequency management in a given space than tonal reproduction. |
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Kristen Bruno
From:
Orlando, Florida, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 7:07 pm
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The sound guy can make or break you.
I tell them to make me sound young, thin and blonde.
K
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"Technology has given us the ability to repeat all the mistakes we have learned from history, but much faster, deadlier and with much greater accuracy" - KAB |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 9:49 pm
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I could be wrong, but I recall all of the amps being mic'ed at Scotty's Convention? There must be a preferred reason? I'm guessing it's the air movement of the speaker that adds to the over-all tone and punch?
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 1:16 am
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Probably because of the number of artists involved. A mic is a known quantity, whereas a DI (where it exists) is of uncertain eq and level (or may not work at all). Keeping it simple...
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 6:52 am
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I always try to capture the sound that the performer wants.
One thing I do at sound check is always listen to the instruments on stage to see what I am dealing with tone wise. It is difficult to take a big bodied Martin series guitar and make it sound like a D-18 for example.
I also suggest to the pickers any minor tone changes that will make the FOH sound better without getting away from the tone of the instrument. Or sometimes you may need to add a small amount of mids to the steel to make it cut through the mix without having to raise the gain and have it overtake the singers.
It always amazes me to see a sound engineer never listen the instruments natively but instead just start twisting knobs. The outcome most of the time is not going to be good.
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Mark T
Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12 |
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