Playing Live vs. Recording

Nick Fryer · From: Ohio, USA

I’m curious to hear from folks who actively record on sessions and play live and get feedback on how your mindset changes. Specifically, on classic country records it’s obvious that the arrangements are well thought out where the steel will be comping or filling behind the vocals and then will lay out and the fiddle will be playing fills on the next verse and then the steel and fiddle will split a solo break or some variation of that. I assume that when those bands played live and stretched out more it was a little looser and there was more overall playing but I’m curious to hear more about how people approach it. I don’t do any session work but I play out in bands a lot and I always feel like I’m just over playing, however when I lay out I feel like I should be playing more. Not sure if any of this has been discussed before on here and I realize that the basic answer is “use your ears and play when the music calls for it and lay out when needed” but would like to hear from people on how they approach this.

Thanks - NF
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Howard Parker · From: Maryland

In my own experience, recorded tracks and live performance are broadly similar but rarely identical.

It's common to use different personnel when live and common for recorded versions to have more complex layering, often with additional instrumentation.

As to the latter part of your question, if arrangements are not predetermined, well, you just have to use your ears to hear what might be appropriate for you to be playing at that moment.

Lots of threads here and suggest you do a search for "backup" or similar.

Hope this helps.

h
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Nick Fryer · From: Ohio, USA

Thanks Howard, that all makes sense. Maybe another angle that I’m curious about is, can everyone in the band be filling and taking up space at the same time and have the result be musical and tasteful? I hate getting into the space in my head where I’m always thinking “gotta lay out because the fiddle is playing” and then it becomes a back and forth dance. I assume that the obvious choice is, if more people are playing then if you are going to join in then less is more is the best choice so that the texture doesn’t become too dense. I’d love to hear some recorded examples or anecdotes about bands that would go all in all the time with great musical results.
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Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Well, imho, the answer is definitely "maybe".

I think of it as the difference between:

passive backup - comping chords, rhythm, etc.

active backup - scale based fills, melody lines, etc.

It's trickier of course if you're called to do things like harmonize a fill with another instrument.

My general rule of thumb is that if I'm not adding anything really meaningful..it's probably best to stop playing.

h

Nick Fryer · From: Ohio, USA

That’s great, I love how you defined and describe active and passive. This is the type of info I’m looking for. Thank you.
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Howard Parker · From: Maryland

I'll just add that in my primary band everything is "loosely pre-arranged" including backup and comping.

That being said, tunes tend to evolve over time during performance. Tele & steel are the primary lead instruments. we've learned to keep our ears open and if my tele playing partner feels like making an impromptu musical statement I just need to keep my ears open and accommodate him by staying out of his way. He does the same for me.

We have a level of trust and no one is showboating.

h

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

If the band has several lead instruments, they'll be taking turns splitting solos and playing the main fills behind the vocal. I don't think you have to stop playing when another instrument is soloing or playing the main fills, but it's important to back off on the volume pedal,stay out of the way, and play in a different sonic space an octave below (or sometimes above) the main fills.

Nick Fryer · From: Ohio, USA

Thanks Dave, that is very helpful.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I'm not a Nashville caliber picker but I've done my share of recording.

I break it down to two basic thoughts. Live you are "recreating" and recording you are "creating". I've worked with some outstanding musicians that can copy a recording perfectly but fall flat in a studio setting. I consider it a talent to be able to create.

Nick Fryer · From: Ohio, USA

Jack, thanks and I agree with your sentiment. I guess more specifically I’m curious about improvising and creating music live with a band and how the steel player balances laying out vs. playing and the techniques and mindset in navigating the various textural levels and in the moment musical decisions.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Live band situations depend on whether you are copying (or mostly) the original recording arrangement or whether creating the band's own arrangement of a song.

I stop playing when its not my "turn". I don't want to play, even low volume level, when another lead instrument is filling in, unless its part of the arrangement.

I also try to adhere to Jeff Newman's "Show me what you can't play" when backing the singer. I also learned that from jimmy Peppers (Nashville musician, producer, song writer, George Jones band leader and harmony singer 68-75). Peppers was a student of producer Billy Sherill, and he taught me a lot recording (and playing) on his song demos (I recorded over 100 songs for him).

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

When I do sessions, the producer or artist will often say, "Play all the way through the tune." Then he or she will take out parts in favor of, say, a guitar or fiddle.

When doing a tune, I'll ask whether the steel should be out front; or just padding. Is there a place where I should play a solo? And do they want an intro riff--because often there is simply a rhythm guitar at the top of the tune.

That's about the most direction I need. The rest gets adjusted as we do various takes. A producer might ask for me to play up on the neck at Letter B, for example.

For some singer/songwriters, it's the first time they have had experience with a steel, so they are happy just to have "that sound" on the track! If they're happy, I'm happy.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

In the session work I've done, I was more or less just a contractor, and had very little input. I was hired to do a job, fill a need, and little more. But when I was playing live (or recording with my own band) I had a lot more say as to the overall package and sound. In short, my opinion and wants mattered a lot more.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

In a live situation, what you do depends somewhat on whether there is a full-time rhythm guitarist. The lead singer often fills that role on acoustic in a country band. In that case, when your other lead instrument is playing a solo or doing fills behind the vocal, you can just lay out. If there is no rhythm player, then comping at lower volume can provide a nice canvas for both the singer and the lead player. Comping on pedal steel is not easy, and it can be overdone and sound silly if you try to imitate a rhythm guitar.

I would say, unless you have something worked out with the other lead player, improvising solos or fills at the same time usually doesn’t work. If you are trying to create a chaotic sounding dynamic, then it’s fine.

Pros pretty much stick to arrangements, which may evolve over time. When you see a live show by a Biggie, there is little or no guesswork about who is playing what and when.

Recording is, as has been mentioned, pretty much the realm of the producer. You are there in the studio because your ability on your instrument and your creative instincts are known and trusted, but there is a boss.

Michael Sawyer · From: North Carolina, USA

We record our rehearsals,and have recorded a few of our gigs.
As far as how much i do or dont do in a song- it honestly depends on the song of course,and by recording rehearsals,i kind of figure out how much or how little i need to do.90% of the songs i am consistently doing something,sometimes it is very subtle,basically not noticeable.Helps me keep my place so i am there when i need to be heard.
Im just a weekend hacker,but recording our rehearsals has been the best tool to make us get better.

Nick Fryer · From: Ohio, USA

Good stuff. Thanks all!
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

very nice comments above, here's another-

Playing live we are fitting into the arrangement that's happening on the fly, perhaps being inspired by other players.

recording- we are playing to a predetermined arrangement, a feel or a mood. A producer may already have an idea as to what he or she is looking for, or "expecting" . A session player should be able to hear and decipher the feel/mood and add to it.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

A funny story about what the producer wants.
Mid 70's to mid 80's (when the studio closed) I was the studio tech and steeler on call at Big K records in Kansas City MO. Many times I would get the call when everything was done except the steel. I would set up and he would tell me I'll play the song so you can get familiar with it. I would "noodle" around with the song trying to learn it and he would come running out of the control room yelling "that's it, that's what I want". Only problem, I would have no idea what I did but together we would come up with something acceptable.

Andrew Goulet · Posted 31 Jul 2022 6:33 am

When recording, I'm often asked to just play through the whole track, and then the producer takes what they want and discards the rest.

Live, I think it's really helpful to either have fill/solos arrangements and/or have excellent on-stage communication. In my current working band, we're assigning verses and working stuff out beforehand, but I'd like to get to the point where we can just hear who's taking the verse and the other person lays out.
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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I try to listen to more to everyone else rather then get all wrapped up in my own playing. Is my role support or on the surface? After I’ve been doing sessions I play better live because I’m thinking about the music in a bigger way.

Then there are live gigs where you gotta play the part no matter what. Same with sessions. My musical instincts often have nothing to do with what I play.
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Speaking of instincts...I have never done much session work, and for good reason. But a few months ago I got a call to do some steel tracking for a friend of mine, who was more or less the producer. The engineer had evidently been given plenty of creative license too, if you want to call it that. When I started using the volume pedal for levels check, he told me I might as well get rid of that thing because he wanted the full signal from the guitar so he could control volume levels and any swelling or sustain during mixdown. I had to have my right foot on the VP, because it just didn’t feel right playing without it. But he set my volume so I had to have it wide open the whole time.

Talk about having a wrench thrown in your technique machine.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think the whole session dynamic is changing, and probably not for the better. With a lot of players doing remote sessions now, I'd guess that not only you won't know the other musicians, you may not even meet them. (Or the singer.) I, for one, feel the interplay between artists recording is elemental and necessary. But I may be too "old school" to try to relate that to the present generation.

Unfortunately, progress is often anti-social. Oh Well

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I haven’t done a studio recording session with a full band in 20 years. It’s all been layered tracks, one player at a time, just like if you were doing it all yourself (which I actually enjoy more). It does indeed suck in many ways, but makes scheduling a heck of a lot easier. And I don’t have sit there and diddle for two hours while the engineer is trying to get that perfect kick drum sound...

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Oh I got paid.

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