| Author |
Topic: Theory help needed: |
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 18 Jul 2022 12:06 pm |
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I am in the process of expanding my ability to play BEHIND other instrument soloist in Jazz on the PSG (C6th).
One issue I need some theory guidance is the following.
Lets assume a vi-m, ii-m, V7, I.Maj, IV.Maj progression... lets say around a C.Maj center.
playing in wide gripped "shell voicings" like like strings
2
x
4
x
x
7
or
3
x
5
x
x
8
or
4
x
6
x
x
9
IF over the first chord (vi-m) what is the theory on moving these voicing around to lead up just shy of the next chord (ii-m)?
It's like playing a walking bass line in "chords" but it must fit the chord being played while leading up to... the next chord.
Somehow, I can do that in many ways going from ii-m to V7... but I get stumped or untrusty of my ears when going from a minor to a minor or a Major to a Major.
Any "Therories for Dummies"?
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2022 5:16 am
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One way to do it is with a leading diminished chord:
Am7, Dbdim7, Dm7
or
Am7, D#dim7, Dm7
- Slim
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2022 8:16 am
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You don’t have to think of walking bass lines “fitting the chord” so much as fitting the tonal center. On the other hand, diatonic bass lines can be fun too, while reharmonizing them with passing chords.
For a walking bass line from Am - Dm:
Am7/A - Bdim/B - Am7/C - Edim/E - Dm7/D
This implies a 1m - 5b9 - 1m - 1M - 4m progression.
The Bdim represents E7b9 with the root on the 5 of the E. Resolves back to the 1m.
Am7 with root on minor 3rd, self explanatory.
The Edmin acts as A7b9, which would be the 5 of Dm. Just that one beat of an implied 1dom7 resolving to the 4m.
You could also try C#diim, also implying A7b9 with root on the major 3rd.
Probably 100 other ways of getting from 1m to 4m. And a zillion for the majors. Hopefully someone with sone knowledge of C6 grips can help you with that aspect of your question. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Jul 2022 11:02 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
You don’t have to think of walking bass lines “fitting the chord” so much as fitting the tonal center. On the other hand, diatonic bass lines can be fun too, while reharmonizing them with passing chords.
For a walking bass line from Am - Dm:
Am7/A - Bdim/B - Am7/C - Edim/E - Dm7/D
This implies a 1m - 5b9 - 1m - 1M - 4m progression.
The Bdim represents E7b9 with the root on the 5 of the E. Resolves back to the 1m.
Am7 with root on minor 3rd, self explanatory.
The Edmin acts as A7b9, which would be the 5 of Dm. Just that one beat of an implied 1dom7 resolving to the 4m.
You could also try C#diim, also implying A7b9 with root on the major 3rd.
Probably 100 other ways of getting from 1m to 4m. And a zillion for the majors. Hopefully someone with sone knowledge of C6 grips can help you with that aspect of your question. |
Thanks Fred. And Slim too.
I found some ways and I have "fixed" one passing chord to where it fits the bass line (track). I just am looking for the "Theory/TheoriES" behind that, because it's something I want to make a discipline for each tune.
What I have been doing so far could be explained away as playing:
- bouncing between minor 7th/minor 6th (just as in Jazz guitar accompaniment we tend to switch back and forth between M6th/M7th too)
- playing inversions (using a 4-note platform which C6th offers for most chords and playing only 3-note grips, this allows for at least one root-less inversion)
- playing "partial" diminished chords where we could also just play the "slide-up-from-chord one fret below the target chord.
I am unsure which it was, Wes Montgomery or Charlie Christian who said that they would play a different chord on each beat, never the same twice. And that's what I want to get to.
In my Gypsy Swing (guitar) accompaniment, THAT was not expected of much welcomed approach, as there is more emphasis on rhythm and DRIVE and providing a "solid" foundation for soloists to play over. So, this is something I now need to study to be able to incorporate into my steel playing.
I feel that in JAZZ (vs. Western Swing), where a steel player seeks to fit into a Jazz ensemble that may well be compromised of a guitarist, bassist and maybe some kind of wind player (Eg; Sax), when the only other instrument capable to do a harmonic accompaniment (guitar in this example) wishes to take a sole, the only other polytonal instrument (the steel guitar, in this example) ought to be able to take over to bring about that foundation.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Jul 2022 11:02 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
You don’t have to think of walking bass lines “fitting the chord” so much as fitting the tonal center. On the other hand, diatonic bass lines can be fun too, while reharmonizing them with passing chords.
For a walking bass line from Am - Dm:
Am7/A - Bdim/B - Am7/C - Edim/E - Dm7/D
This implies a 1m - 5b9 - 1m - 1M - 4m progression.
The Bdim represents E7b9 with the root on the 5 of the E. Resolves back to the 1m.
Am7 with root on minor 3rd, self explanatory.
The Edmin acts as A7b9, which would be the 5 of Dm. Just that one beat of an implied 1dom7 resolving to the 4m.
You could also try C#diim, also implying A7b9 with root on the major 3rd.
Probably 100 other ways of getting from 1m to 4m. And a zillion for the majors. Hopefully someone with sone knowledge of C6 grips can help you with that aspect of your question. |
Thanks Fred. And Slim too.
I found some ways and I have "fixed" one passing chord to where it fits the bass line (track). I just am looking for the "Theory/TheoriES" behind that, because it's something I want to make a discipline for each tune.
What I have been doing so far could be explained away as playing:
- bouncing between minor 7th/minor 6th (just as in Jazz guitar accompaniment we tend to switch back and forth between M6th/M7th too)
- playing inversions (using a 4-note platform which C6th offers for most chords and playing only 3-note grips, this allows for at least one root-less inversion)
- playing "partial" diminished chords where we could also just play the "slide-up-from-chord one fret below the target chord.
I am unsure which it was, Wes Montgomery or Charlie Christian who said that they would play a different chord on each beat, never the same twice. And that's what I want to get to.
In my Gypsy Swing (guitar) accompaniment, THAT was not expected of much welcomed approach, as there is more emphasis on rhythm and DRIVE and providing a "solid" foundation for soloists to play over. So, this is something I now need to study to be able to incorporate into my steel playing.
I feel that in JAZZ (vs. Western Swing), where a steel player seeks to fit into a Jazz ensemble that may well be compromised of a guitarist, bassist and maybe some kind of wind player (Eg; Sax), when the only other instrument capable to do a harmonic accompaniment (guitar in this example) wishes to take a sole, the only other polytonal instrument (the steel guitar, in this example) ought to be able to take over to bring about that foundation.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2022 9:54 am
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It has always seemed more challenging for me to find ways of getting from 4 back to 1, major or minor. Diminished chords (implied 7b9 chords) are indeed your friends, along with straight tritone dom7’s and m7b5.
Tempo has a lot to do with accompaniment. If the “walking” bass part is more of a sprint, throwing a chord voicing change on every beat is going to sound a bit cluttery. I don’t care who said it, but less is more in that case. Nobody wants to solo over somebody in the rhythm section playing a chord melody.
Even at lower tempos, I think it becomes a matter of taste when to throw in the harmonic movement between basic chord changes. Having the knowledge of what works is great, but knowing when to apply it is a separate skill. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 24 Jul 2022 7:54 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
It has always seemed more challenging for me to find ways of getting from 4 back to 1, major or minor. Diminished chords (implied 7b9 chords) are indeed your friends, along with straight tritone dom7’s and m7b5.
Tempo has a lot to do with accompaniment. If the “walking” bass part is more of a sprint, throwing a chord voicing change on every beat is going to sound a bit cluttery. I don’t care who said it, but less is more in that case. Nobody wants to solo over somebody in the rhythm section playing a chord melody.
Even at lower tempos, I think it becomes a matter of taste when to throw in the harmonic movement between basic chord changes. Having the knowledge of what works is great, but knowing when to apply it is a separate skill. |
From my experience with Gypsy Jazz... most soloists hate other soloists to play "pompe"-rhythm because soloist tend to over-change and thus fail to provide a solid platform to solo over. Which would seems to allude to your well taken point, Fred.
On the other hand, when you listen to big bands of the 30's 40's and 50's, just like in Classical music, you will hear a LOT of "movement" "humming" behind themes and solos.
Likewise when you hear guys like Bill Evans accompany a Miles Davis, even only on a single chord-tune like So What, he is making the tune stay "interesting" because of his harmonic panoply generated in the back ground.
I think that if guitar players can do it, Jazz steel guitarist ought to be able to provide several styles of back up. We're not exactly rhythmic in the sense that we would have a hard time to provide "drive" like I have to on "standard" guitar "pumping" behind Caffein-high Gypsy Jazz soloist... but we can be providing several styles and levels of harmonic backup.
Evidently, that's not the same as backing a singer.
And that's what I am working on now.
Back looking at videos of Piano Players' and Guitarists' instruction videos.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2022 11:23 am
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| Quote: |
On the other hand, when you listen to big bands of the 30's 40's and 50's, just like in Classical music, you will hear a LOT of "movement" "humming" behind themes and solos.
Likewise when you hear guys like Bill Evans accompany a Miles Davis, even only on a single chord-tune like So What, he is making the tune stay "interesting" because of his harmonic panoply generated in the back ground. |
I believe most, if not all, of that big band era stuff was arranged. That kind of interplay in a large group setting is almost impossible to do spontaneously. It has always intrigued me how that stuff got worked out and written. One thing that stands out in my listening experience is how short the solos are. Unless it’s somebody like Benny Goodman or Tommy Dorsey, the soloist often seems to just do a fill that leads into an obviously arranged variation of a theme or melody by a horn section.
And your point on So What is well taken too. It is much easier to invent harmonic movement on the fly if the basic changes are minimal or non-existent. I wouldn’t advise it on Cherokee or Giant Steps 😎
Interesting topic. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 24 Jul 2022 11:32 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Quote: |
On the other hand, when you listen to big bands of the 30's 40's and 50's, just like in Classical music, you will hear a LOT of "movement" "humming" behind themes and solos.
Likewise when you hear guys like Bill Evans accompany a Miles Davis, even only on a single chord-tune like So What, he is making the tune stay "interesting" because of his harmonic panoply generated in the back ground. |
I believe most, if not all, of that big band era stuff was arranged. That kind of interplay in a large group setting is almost impossible to do spontaneously. It has always intrigued me how that stuff got worked out and written. One thing that stands out in my listening experience is how short the solos are. Unless it’s somebody like Benny Goodman or Tommy Dorsey, the soloist often seems to just do a fill that leads into an obviously arranged variation of a theme or melody by a horn section.
And your point on So What is well taken too. It is much easier to invent harmonic movement on the fly if the basic changes are minimal or non-existent. I wouldn’t advise it on Cherokee or Giant Steps 😎
Interesting topic. |
Yes, most Big Band material was rehearsed to a "T"... unless a guest soloist was let in.
One had to be able to play off sheet music to qualify... ask Speedy West who got fired from a big band because he faked reading (he told me).
Anyways, it's that lack of exposure, time, attention and fun that created soloist back alley gatherings and something which later got called Bebop.
Big Band music was "entertainment" and dance music, so soloist were given little "star light" as except for few like Goodman, most bandleaders tried to keep the spot light on them for being the "leader".
Don't worry, I won't try my ideas on Cherokee or Giant Steps.... JUST YET.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
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