electronic pedals and knees

Darryl Hattenhauer · From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA

This question might be the dumbest ever asked. But take pity on a shakey, drooling, deaf, blind and alzheimered geezer.

Would it be possible (and if so, sensible) to make a steel so that the pedals and knees work electronically? They would respond to degrees of pressure, something like a volume pedal. Wouldn't it be lighter because you wouldn't have all that rebar, girders, and 13-speed transmission underneath?

I realize that this might be as dumb as putting gas in a diesel, or a screen door on a submarine.

bOb, I realize you might want to move this to humor.

------------------
"I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back." --Henny Youngman

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Automation at the expense of expression...
Could be done, but you'd still have to keep time and tempo with the bar & picks. I see a feedback loop going unstable. Self destruct mode...
The constraint of automation is standardization.
I like my variability Dr. Deming... Thanks.

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

This is something i have been working on....
a midi based continuous controller message sent to an electronic servo underneath the cabinet
good bye to cables rods....hello to wireless bluetooth communications on a steel guitar.
All i need is someone to help machine a changer. String guages are still an issue. but a software based setup/auto tune is a great possibility. Move your emmons over to a day setup at press of a button.
Rand

[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 30 October 2006 at 03:00 PM.]

Chick Donner · From: North Ridgeville, OH USA

MANY years ago (30+?) I played a steel in Phoenix that was hydraulic. Damn thing weighed about 800 lbs and had to be moved in one piece, but what a pedal action! Talk about smooth. Plus, you really didn't ant to put it on a good carpet, though hydraulics are better today than then.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

It could be done, but it's a question of both cost and practicality. The cost, at least initially, would be significantly more, and it would only reduce with significant sales and demand, something that's not very likely, given the pedal steel's history of popularity. As far a practicality, there's two aspects; the long-term reliability (mechanics, though low-tech, are usually good for decades), and the ease of serviceability when it's needed. Hydraulics are expensive, sometimes messy, and don't have a particularly long service life. The alternate high-tech electronics (servos and controllers) have the problem that when a part's obsolete (no longer made by the original manufacturer), you probably can't make a replacement yourself or obtain one easily, as opposed to the ease of duplicating anything strictly mechanical.

So, for a few more decades (probably), we're "stuck" with the already tried and proven systems of rods or cables.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 30 October 2006 at 02:12 PM.]

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

actually i could see things being done cost effective. im into about $300 into parts.
my first contraption will be this....
a box on floor with two pedals. a special cable will run from nox transmitting MIDI and power and receiving guitar signal.
1st pedal will raise b string on guitar 1 step(b bender)
2nd pedal will raise g sting.
once i get this down right and manageable...i will do an 8 pedal model fender 400.
full step raises or lowers on any string completely reprogrammable by string.
imagine setting up your steel without any rods.
dont need to even attach the pedal board to the steel. knee levers would be same.
software based fine tuning.
built in modelling dsp.
tension controlled by springs on self contained pedal board.
i had though the idea of muscle-wire(robotic pneumatic/hydraulics for changers.
but im messing with servos for now.

[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 30 October 2006 at 02:59 PM.]

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I don't think I'd want any part of a system like hydraulics or electronics to operate my steel. In my opinion, the steel guitar is still a musical instrument and I like to be a part of my instrument as much as I'm able. Your hands pick the strings which are attached to the changer which is directly attached to the rods, then to the bell cranks, to the cross rods, to the pedal rods, then to the pedals. Sounds like a lot but it's all connected together between your hands and feet and you know it's going to work if everything's hooked up properly. When you pick a string and press a pedal it's your body making the different parts of the instrument work, not an electronic signal or hydraulic fluid. I'll just stay with the tried and true....JH in Va.

------------------
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Michael Douchette · From: Gallatin, TN (deceased)

Didn't Roland do this some years ago? Seems like they did...

------------------
Mikey D...

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

Well this idea has been lingering around for a long time, but the ideas I came up with is a digital pitch bender where the guitar plugs into it and you program where the notes would use slide or not use slide, some of these are used on theater organs and other organs use the hydraulics.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

There's an idea floating around that you can capture the waveform of each note and reclock it digitally to produce raises and lowers. On the surface it sounds ideal - no more mechanical changer - but I think there's a problem.

I think that the harmonic content of the digitally-bent note would be wrong. Also, since the base note is still vibrating acoustically, it's affecting the resonance of the other strings.

Think about it. Your at the 8th fret playing a C chord. You stomp on the pedals and an F chord comes out of your amp. But the E and G notes are still vibrating the body of the guitar, adding their harmonic content to the other notes.

The effect might actually sound rich and orchestral in simple, triad-based music, but I think it's a recipe for disaster as soon as you start bending into complex chords. I could be wrong.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

I think you all are missing my point.

I'm not talking about resampling or modelling waveforms.

I'm talking about mechanical spring loaded pedals that feel real and natural. I can measure the travel of the pedal and the rate of that travel...this is your expression. On a non latent basis i am then transmitting that data to a mechanical changer.

The only difference is the linkage....instead of cables or rods i am sending electronic messages.

Control Voltage is nothing new and has been around for years.

Just as your pot based volume pedals have expression so can your foot pedals.

I am just capturing that expression and translating it to MIDI information.

Imagine being able to record foot pedal movements with a MIDI sequencer and then play them back to a servo controlled MECHANICAL changer.

Here is the beginning phase.....notice the pot on pedal 2......this will measure the amount and the rate of travel of that pedal.

It can be mapped to raise or lower any string any amount. It can be remapped on the fly.

zum pedals and a knotty pine finish.

[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 30 October 2006 at 07:26 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Take a look at this topic in the Forum Archives.

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

That is it exactly!
and what C Dixon and you said about servos and gearing is totally doable. I have also been contemplating solenoids!

So at least now i have a nice stand alone 2 pedal setup. They feel realistic (tension wise and rolling AB corn) and great standing up. They are now transmitting Control Voltage values for the pedal movements via volume pots.

Next i will build a servo controller and a couple servo motors into a 6 string to get the strings moving.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Rand
It is wonderful that you are building a servo-controlled string stretcher. I would love to have something like that. Among other advantages, it would allow all 12 strings to respond to each pedal change, so that temperament could be optimized for each combination of pedals. I think it would be fun to write the software for that.

Will your servo device measure position, or tension? Our old mechanical pedal steel guitars pull to a tunable position of course. But there would be advantages to a servo mechanism that senses tension instead. It would be active all the time, not just when you are moving a pedal.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Rand
How much power do you think you would want in a servo motor?
Here is a ballpark estimate:

E string .014 has about 30 pounds tension.
Pull to F# takes moves it about 1/16 inch.
So the work done is about 2 foot-pounds, or about 1.5 joules.
The time allowed could be 1/20 second (or maybe even faster sometimes), so the power needed would be 30 watts.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Rand
Have you found a way to shield the motors so that you don't hear them via the pickup and wiring?

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

that would take planning and calculation. i am more of a trial and error kind of guy.

motor noise can be fun.

try turning on a delay pedal and putting an electric razor near the pickups......sounds like Pink Floyd.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: