Fender 400 - how much is it worth?

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Hi,

I currently only play lap steel, but I'm thinking about taking up pedal steel as well.
A local guy has an old Fender 400 that he wants to sell, it is in good condition (though it might have been refinished - or did the original Fender 400 come in an oxblood red & black two-tone color-scheme?), and I'm wondering what a fair price for that might be.
Here's a pic of the instrument:

Also, would a Fender 400 be a good choice for a beginner? Since it only has 4 pedals, I presume it might be easier to learn playing on it, on the other hand there are less options compared to models that also have knee levers. What are your thoughts on that subject?

Thanks,

Roman

[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 16 October 2006 at 12:30 AM.]

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

Hello Roman, If you are wanting to learn to play pedal steel I would go with a Carter steel guitar like a single 10 string with three pedals and 4 knee levers, the Fender 400 were well known for their sound, but it is limited because it is a cable guitar, but there are guys here on the forum who can help you add knee levers to it, maybe you only want 2 knee levers who knows, but you are in the right place for good info.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Roman - I'm a 400 player, and if you want to learn traditional country pedal steel it's NOT the right instrument - they are absolutely wonderful, but unique. It's hard to find lesson materials or teachers for it.

Your best bet would be to buy it...and with the refinish (the lack of a decal on the pedal bar indicates a refinish, not a custom-color by Fender) on it $500-600 is about the price...and put it up on the "instrument sales" board on the forum as a trade for a 10-string, E9 steel with 3 pedals and 4 knee levers. That will get you everything you need for 99% of the "normal" pedal steel playing.

On the other hand, if you want to go with the Fender there are bunch of us who can help you, but it IS a longer, more challenging road....and you won't be able to play "modern" country, although you can play Bakersfieeld 60's stuff like crazy on one.

These are some of the best guitars...and most durable and easy to service...ever made. But they're mostly for special uses.

Hope that helps.

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Thanks for the help - I don't want to play 'modern' (Nashville-type) country, I play in an alt.country band (Telecaster & C6 lap steel) with an emphasis on singer-songwriter stuff (Steve Earle, Townes Van Zandt, Loudon Wainwright, Bob Dylan, and similar stuff), and I also like to play roots rock, rockabilly type music, and I love old honky-tonk/Bakersfield type country music.

You know, used pedal steels are virtually unavailable in central Europe, and the most affordable option for a new one would be ordering a Carter Starter from the Netherlands for about 800 Euros, that's why I was a bit excited about seeing this one for sale (though I still have to find out how much the seller is ecpecting for it).

But a lack of teaching material for that specific instrument might be a problem, esp. since I won't be able to find a teacher here, either.

Maybe sticking to lap steel until a better deal crops up might be the best option?

[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 16 October 2006 at 05:27 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Roman, if you can get that "400" for a reasonable price I'd go for it. If you're already into lap steel you're familiar with a lot more bar movement and slants, etc. You'll do fine with the guitar. A 400 has it's own unique sound and there's a world of music in one of them you just have to look for it. Alternative country and such? I think the Fender would be great for that! You can really fit a lot of the old Bakersfield sound into a lot of the things I've heard on the "Americana" channel. You can tune these a couple of ways but a good old E9 would be the best IMO. I've seen them tuned like the bottom 10 strings of a standard E9 which is (low to high) B D E F# G# B E G# or I've seen them tuned where you'd drop the low B and add either an F# or D# as the 1st string.....JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

As has been pointed out above, it's not a good guitar for today's stuff, but it's
great for alt. and Bakersfield. I bought
one to resell but I occassionally sit in
with a band doing alt. and they tune down a
half step, so it's a match made in heaven.
I added a couple of knee levers and I'm keeping it.

Alvin Blaine · From: Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA

If everything is working on the steel pictured above, I would say that $500 is a fair deal. If it had the original finish and in good shape it could go for $700+, but $500 is fair for a refin.

This steel would be perfect for the kind of music you want to use it for.
I can also tell you that the steel used on the new Dylan CD is almost identical to this Fender 400. It was an old refinish in a green/blue color. It's a few years older than the one above because it has the wider (Jazzmaster style) pickup, but the mid 60's Fender 400's sound great also.

[This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 16 October 2006 at 02:54 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I agree with Jerry - if that's the stuff you want to play, the guitar is perfect for it. Tune it to the low-8 of an E9, do the A, B, C pedals and use the 4th to lower the E's and you can play like crazy AND use almost all the basic lesson stuff. And we can sure help you with parts support, service help, etc. - with what you want to do I think it's be a great buy!

Let me add - if you decide to add more pedals, that's a piece of cake. And even knee levers are not tough. These are indestructible, great sounding guitars that are a breeze to work on.

C'mon, buy it - we need another "overseas" club member!

;-)

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 16 October 2006 at 06:55 PM.]

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

Hey Roman, see how quickly the people turn up on this forum that can help you with this Fender 400, if I were you I would buy it for the Alternative country that you would be playing, and add the knee levers to it, there is a section on this forum about adding knee levers to these guitars, and it looked like it was somewhat easy to do, some of these guys have already mentioned they could help you perform these tasks on the guitar, so I would not wait to long on this instrument.

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

OK, thanks again, everybody - seems I'll have to try and get it now...

Roman

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

Hey Roman, there is a recent topic still here on the forum by Paul, titled does adding knee levers devalue my fender 400, go to his topic, and there is this wealth of info on adding knee levers to a fender 400 and a pedal chart.

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Well, the seller wants 900 Euros for the Fender - quite a bit more than you advised, and also more than a new Carter Starter would cost. He has put it on Austrian Ebay, and considering the scarcity of used pedal steels over here, I'm sure he'll get that price easily...

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

Hey Roman, sorry to hear he raised the price, that carter starter is not too bad if you go for it, just that it is somewhat limited to adding anymore knees unless you can find a way, good luck in your search, my friend Mac Knowels who builds the MK steels in Canada might be able to help you out, his guitars are reasonably priced, I can locate his e-mail for you and you could e-mail him for information on his guitars.

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Steven,
thanks, but importing one from Canada might not be the best option for me (shipping, custom duties,...)
BTW, the auction for that Fender brought a price of around 880 Euros!

Roman

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I have a strong opinion on this. The Fender 400 is a great instrument if you want to dedicate it to a specific style of music (like alt.country), but it is not complete. You must have at least 10 strings and 3 knee levers to form the complete musical system of the E9th. With that system, you can play any style of music.

Some people say that they are not interested in playing anything other than country (or rock, or blues, or jazz, or Hawaiian, or whatever). I say why box yourself into a corner with the inherent limitations of an antique instrument.

This is especially relevant when you are first learning to play. The habits that you acquire in the first few years will influence your playing style for the rest of your life. It's much easier to step back to a Fender 400 to play in a specific band, for a specific sound, than it is to start on a Fender 400 and then step up to the full copedent.

I know that a lot of people don't agree with me on this, but it's my opinion. Starting on a Fender 400 when other, more complete pedal steels are available is a Bad Idea, in my opinion.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

What I would do with that guitar is since you already know C6,put an 8 string C6 on there (GECAGECA)or(DECAGECA) or maybe the same tuning in A and have the basic changes off a regular C6 pedal setup. You wouldn't break strings and wouldn't be lacking quite so much as you would trying to put some abbreviated E9 tuning on there. The E9 tuning is overrated anyhow.
BTW,that particular guitar has the thin "Jaguar" type pickup and the rocking cams which came out in the 60s and is the more desirable model in my view.The guy is asking about twice what it's worth however - especially since it's been refinished.
-MJ-

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Well, thanks for your advice, but since the Fender was sold to someone else, I'll probably be looking at a Carter Starter in the future...

Martin Abend · From: Berlin, Germany

Hi Roman,

You're invited to check out my website for German-speaking Steel Players. There you'll possibly find answer to some of your questions.

Best,

MArtin

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martin abend Pedal-Steel in Germany
s-10 sierra crown gearless 3 x4 | GiMa squareneck

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I do not wish to denigrate Carter Starters because they do have their place - but by nature of their price point they are a bit flimsy and not exactly "future-proof". do yourself a favor and go ahead and get the more pro model S-10 3+5 Carter even if it has to be used.There's all kinds of reasons you'll be real glad you did.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"I say why box yourself into a corner with the inherent limitations of an antique instrument."

I am one who disagrees. It's not limited at all, depending on your copedent. I you look at the B6 "Sneaky" copedent, it's basically a Universal on 8 strings, with a beefier tonal range - PLUS with the Fender you have a HUGE advantage with volume and tone controls on the guitar, which allow you to access a wide range of sounds. With that copedent you can play just about every classic-country lick around, and get away with amny "modern" sounds...plus many unique ones.

IMO modern steels are the ones limited and boxed in a corner with the one-tone setup (no controls and a pickup jammed against the bridge is a bad combination IMO); Plus you have to admit 99% of the teaching materials available are in one style anyway, so you are still limited to country if you're just starting. If that's not "boxed into a corner" I don't know what is.

It's true there are no teaching materials for the B6. However, there has developed here on the forum a group of players who guide each other and teach by email - nobody with a Fender 400 is left out in the cold who stumbles in here.

The B6 is very intuitive, unlike E9 with its chromatics and goofy 9th string. You can play all 8 strings pretty much anywhere, the inversions are the same on the top-4 and bottom 4, while with E9 you're limited to 7 for the most part, the other 3 being dropped in here and there.

I do not disagree that a beginner who wants to play straight country should go E9 and a 3+3 or 3+4 setup - but saying a 400 is limited, implying it's not playable as an "antique" and that it gets you "stuck in a corner" is absolutely wrong.

Curt Langston · Posted 26 Oct 2006 7:15 am

500.00
In excellent condition.

It is very limited when compared to a modern 10 string E9th with 3 and 5.

Nostalgic?..... Maybe.

Practical?.....Not by todays standards.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 26 October 2006 at 08:19 AM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Practical?.....Not by todays standards."

That completely depends on what you're playing. If you play outside the country-hit box, they are completely practical and very versatile. Not to mention the advantage of being able to change copedents in minutes.

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Starting such a heated discussion wasn't exactly my intention...

Martin, I already know your site, actually, that's where I check for used instruments, and where I found the info about the European distributor of the Carter Starter.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Jim, Sneaky Pete's copedent includes knee levers that a stock Fender 400 never had. I said that you need at least 3 knee levers to have a complete musical system. You can modify a Fender 400 to add those knee levers, but beginners don't have the expertise to do that. The Fender 400 has a huge limitation in that it doesn't have knee levers. Without knee levers, a pedal steel is incomplete. It's an "inherent limitation of an antique instrument", IMHO.

Also, your idea that the E9th is just for hit country sounds is flat out wrong. 95% of my steel playing is E9th, and only a quarter of that is country music. I haven't played a hit country song in many years.

My 2-year-old Williams pedal steel has a tone control, and it came with a volume control that rests under my right foot. When I need more tonal variation, I put the Pod XT near my right hand. It's hard for me to imagine a more versatile setup, for all kinds of music.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Without knee levers, a pedal steel is incomplete. "

Wrong.

Talk to Ed Bierly, who can play rings around most players on his 400 - with no knee levers. *Pete's* 400 didn't have knee levers until the 70's. The "knee lever" argument is irrelevant.

"Also, your idea that the E9th is just for hit country sounds is flat out wrong."

You misread it. That had to do with available learning materals, not your playing.

Your Williams is also an exception. Most modern steels have neither, as you are well aware.

"Someone who starts out on an 8 string is likely to be blind to the full musical potential of the E9th."

Obviously, the opposite has ben more apparent around here.

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