how would you fine tune this change?

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

I use 10 string E9/B6, and I have a zero pedal that raises string 6 G# to A# (and lowers 10 G#-F#).

Its a great pedal. Combined w/ A pedal it puts everything into a big F#9/13 framework. The E's lowering and raising then create strummable F#6 and F#maj7.
Another significant advantage is that with zero/A pedal together, I can then raise F#s (1&7) to G on my vertical to create a big diminished7th chord between string 9 and 4, which is super handy.

Here's my hangup, and its rather subtle, but it relates to the nuances of tuning.
I love all the above applications of that zero pedal, but they are all dependent on the tuning framework to be centred around that of F# and the pedalled C#, both of which sit relatively flat in most e9 type tuning systems, and my tuning approach is no exception.

(Without getting too far into the minutae here, I will say that I generally tune the maj thirds and sixth of most voicings about 8 cents flatter than the roots and fifths. This is what my ear consistently 'asks for' and it works for me. As such, and letting cab drop do its thing, I have not had to use compensators. There is a slight inconsistency with a few voicings but I know where they are and intonate accordingly.)

So, what this means is that the A# of that zero pedal sits quite flat, being the maj third between F# and pedalled C#.
That's fine and dandy in the F# paradigm, however, using that zero pedal on its own, for example, as a maj7 semitone rub with the open B string on a B6 chord, is not the smoothest sound, because the B strings are tuned very sharp, the sharpest tuned pitches in my system (and in most e9 tuning systems I'd imagine).

So I avoid that 5th string when I'm playing Bma7 w/ the zero pedal. And if its a passing semitone thing I do a slight reverse slant to make things sit right in that moment.

I don't have tunable splits. Its the front neck of a GFI Ultra. I've thought of putting a compensator on to lower that B string a few cents when the zero pedal goes down, but of course that would mess up the A pedal when they're both down....( If I had splits, would a tunable split allow me to lower sting 5, say 10 cents, on the zero pedal, but NOT affect the full, regular travel of the A pedal when they're both down? )

Its not a huge deal, and as I said, I can work around it ( and intonation 'workarounds' are kind of the essence of steel guitar playing in ways perhaps ) but if I could solve this issue somehow, it would be great, as its a fabulous change that really opens up the tuning in the ways I described. I understand this change is somewhat the same as a ped4 equivalent for B6, and is also on Cowboy Eddie's copedant, and I've heard it called the Bovine or EB pedal. At any rate, perhaps those who understand the issue I'm describing can offer some insight here.

My E tuning pedal set up is charted below.
Es raise/lower on the left, Vertical is Gs on 1&7. RKL makes Ds on 2 & 9.

Cheers
Andy

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Some people who lower the 5th string B to A# use it with their E lowers to get the BMaj7 position. Is this the same problem?

As for playing the 5th string B and the pedaled 6th string A# together, a half-step interval is fairly dissonant in ET. The nearest JI intervals are 21/20 (84.5 cents) and 16/15 (111.7 cents)*. If you tune your A# 12 cents flat of B's tuning (the 16/15 interval), is that acceptable to your ear in both contexts?

*numbers from Harry Partch's "Genesis of a Music"
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Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

I see what you're saying Bob.

The harmonically tuned maj7 of B should be the same as the just/pure maj3 above F#....
But, I think part of the problem is that my 7th string isn't tuned square with the B string(s). It is a bit compromised, a slightly narrower 5th, so as to be in tune with the A&B pedals and string 9 etc. ( A6, D major etc )
If I tuned it up as a pure 5th of B, it would sit pretty high. The B major tonality would sound great, and that A# could then be tuned up to work with both open B(s) and F#.
But then the C#s on the A pedal would not work well with the A#....
I'd also have to add compensators to bring it back down to work w/ AB(&C).
It makes more sense to sacrifice some sweetness of the B major tonality for the sake of everything else.
I don't need everything to be totally beatless, so I've been splitting the difference with that A# raise.
It works great when the A pedal is with it, and works functionally/passibly well on its own.
I think this might be why people tend to throw both the A# and C# on one pedal and tune it to the F#. It ends up being basically like pedal 7 in a B6 context, and there's no open B string 5 to deal with...

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

You could tune the F# to the B and add a compensator to the "A" pedal to lower it. Lots of people do that. "Cabinet drop" doesn't flat it enough.

I used to tune my F# low for the 9th string major 3rd and the "A+B" A6th position, raising it about 10 cents with a compensator on my E lever for the B6th position. That might be a solution for you.

Also consider how your 0 pedal works in the "A+F" position. I think that's a big part of Cowboy's magic. The F# has to be low in that position, too.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Generally, a note which sits nicely as the third of a chord sounds dull as a melody note. Whether this is to do with how we sing or how we perceive melody I cannot say, but I'm constantly aware of it.

I play B6/E9 with a traditional P7 which gives an accurate F# triad. The A# got by lowering 5 on the vertical I tune sharper.

I tune string 7 to the correct pitch for B6, i.e. a perfect 5th below B, and a compensator lowers it if I press A or C. The C#s I get with A/C and P7 are not the same.
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Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Bob, I've considered all these options.
I'm probably overlooking something obvious....

Yes, a compensator on pedal A that lowers 7F# a touch would mean I tune the A# flat to sit between the F#/C# as a maj third.
That would work.
But that A# raise would need to be tuned up to work with the 'uncompensated' F# (and B).... Shocked

The A+F position is very nice! C#6, F#maj7... Anything on that zero pedal that involves the A pedal is great. No problems there. Very Happy

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

This is the kind of puzzle that intrigues me. I shall give it further thought as time permits! Smile

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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Jim Fiegen · From: California, USA

I don't even know how to address this problem because i always tune "straight up " to A-440 and my playing meshes perfectly with other instruments on the track that are tuned the same way, which is basically everything.
Steel players seem to feel that their playing is "special" and needs compensation, when in reality, they need to fit into the track and be fitting in with the tuning of the moment, which is A-440. If the piano plays an 'A' note and you play an "A" note you are in tune. Anything else makes you sound sour........There is nothing "sweet" about playing out of tune....
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Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Jim, I completely hear what you're saying and respect your intention to try and use an equal tempered tuning system.

I can only speak for myself, but my tuning system for steel has evolved out of tuning and playing lap steel by ear in my early 20s, and arriving at the inevitable questions about acoustics and overtones and so on.

I agree, pure, beatless intervals are not always appropriate, but in my view, there are moments where they resonate beautifully, and our instrument is uniquely capable of seizing those moments.

I have never been interested in blindly using 'sweetened tuners'.
Personally, I tune in a way that affords the flexibility and choice of intonation, given the context. I agree there is plenty of straight-up tuning around us, always, and the challenge that I enjoy is to work with that, rather than impose my sense of what in-tune should be....

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I think b0b has found it. Knock a couple cents off your B’s. That should give you some room to compromise the G#-A# change slightly up. You’ll probably have to retune your A pedal and the lever that gets your D’s.
I don’t see how going full on ET would help anything.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Have you tried meantone tuning?

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Hmm, that just might be the trick Fred...

I do indeed tune my Es and Bs together, on the same 'plane', so that 4th/5th relationship really anchors the E tonality.
They sit around 8-10 cents higher than straight up, and the B, being a 5th, actually wants to sit a hair higher than E, so this workaround could change things somewhat...
But, ya, I could alter that interval a touch, by tuning the Bs down.
That would take some getting used to but it would 'sand down' that 5th string from being so sharp with the zero pedal.
It would also improve the relationship with string 7F# which is tuned down a bit as well.

On paper ( screen? ) this sounds like a good approach.....
Could be horrendous. We'll see.

I have my trusty old stage one in the mix this month for some dates so I'm into it right now. The GFI that this pertains to is packed up, but I may carve out some time to explore this in more depth.

Thanks for the perspectives here.

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Ya Earnest, that seems to be the essence of the proposed workaround of flattening the Bs a touch.
I'm not totally familiar with meantone systems but I understand a key factor is the narrowed 5ths....

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I was drawn to the steel largely because of its ability to sustain beatless chords like a trombone section (my other life).
I did tune in ET once using a meter and ignoring my ears. When I tried to play I couldn't tell where to put the bar.
An instrument or group of instruments needs to be in tune with itself. In an orchestra the brass don't play note-for-note in tune with the strings. You can't play a horn in ET - only keyboards and other fixed-pitch instruments can do that.
If you play confidently in natural intervals you'll never sound out, although the piano and guitar might!
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