A-7th Tuning?

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

Has anyone heard of an A-7th Tuning? If so, what would the notes be for an 8 string tuning?
I haven't seen it listed anywhere.

Roger

[This message was edited by Roger Shackelton on 12 June 2002 at 12:32 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Think C6 with the C's raised to C#.
C6=CEGA
A7=C#EGA

(but I'm just a pedal steel player -- what do I know?)

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

A7th is not one of the more popular lap steel tunings. A6th IS!

However, Jerry Byrd came up with an incredible tuning called C6/A7. It became his most recorded tuning. Once mastered, it has few equals if one has a 6 string steel guitar. The following is how it is laid out.

E
C
A
G
E
C#

Jerry recorded using this tuning on many many records in the early era of country singers.

Interesting piece of trivia: Jerry has often retuned the 6th string from C# to a C between songs. And in some cases right in the middle of playing!!!!!

Later he solved that dilemma by playing a 7 string guitar that is tuned as follows:

E
C
A
G
E
C#
C

By selective "grips" in the bass register he has the best of both worlds. This is one of two of his favorite tunings.

The other one is his diatonic tuning which he invented way back yonder

. It is as follows:

E
C
B
A
G
F
E

This is NOT an easy tuning to master. A mistake on this tuning stands out like a Michael Jackson performing at the front of a Church of GOD assembly on Easter morning!!

carl

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

Although the most popular "7th" tuning for steel is E7th, here's A7th (for 8 strings you could add A and G below the the bottom C#):

E
C#
A
G
E
C#

JB appeared on two shows of the old Marty Robbins series, "The Drifter". He played both of those shows with an acoustic 6 string resonator, but at times it almost sounded "electric" (the majic of JB)! Before playing Hilo March, he re-tuned his second string from C to C# to form this A7th tuning.

Hilo March and Maui Chimes are both tabbed out in A7th in JB's catalog of arrangements. Most of the playing though, is done on the top three strings, E-C#-A, which is A major. The 4th string "G" occasionally adds the 7th flavor (like for an ending or turnaround). Both of these tunes (steel guitar classics) were popularized and played for years in A or G major, before players began experimenting with other tunings. In fact, most students of the Dobro learned Maui Chimes as the "Dobro Chimes," but, with the recent wave of political correctness, I guess we should really call it the "Resonator Chimes!

[This message was edited by Jeff Strouse on 13 June 2002 at 11:52 AM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Oh Masterful Carl Dixon......nicely stated as always. But his use of B11th is also rich and flavorful as in his "Steelin' the Chimes". Is it not a combination of both A6th/C6th-7th? I'm just a hick in the sticks so can't provide u'all with the names of each string therein.

Fred Layman · From: Springfield, Missouri USA

Roger, I use an A 6/7 on my Fender Custom, running from low to high = G, A, C#, E, F#, A, C#, E. Since the V (Dominant) chord is 7 frets above (or 5 frets below) the I (Tonic)chord, and you usually drop to the lower strings for the 7th at the 7 up position, it is nice to have a 7th chord on the lower register strings there. I do the same thing on the C6/7 tuning and for the same reason, i.e, from low to high = Bb, C, E, G, A, C, E, G.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Hi Ray,

Yes Jerry did play B11th and made several recordings using this unusual tuning. Interestingly so did Don Helms. But in both cases, neither used this tuning nearly as often as they did their other favorites

On a 6 string guitar, the standard B11 tuning was:

E
C#
A
F#
D#
B

Which some call A/B tuning. While it could be looked at this way, musical theorists would see it immediately as B11. Here is why. If you beging with the root note of any chord and play the full 6 notes of an 11th chord you spell out the following notes:

1, 3, 5, 7. 9 and 11. Or put more succinctly, two 3-note major chords. This is WHY the IV chord in any key is soooo very important in music as it relates to the dominate 7th chord. Example:

Key of C where the dom7 is G7 and the IV chord is F. Now the G7 chord is G B D F. The F chord is F A C. NOTE that both have that absolutely necessary F note.

Now if you say G9 it is G B D F A. And finally if you say B11 it is G B D F A C. Which some would say is F/G. But in reality it is G11th.

If all this stupid theory is too much don't give it another thought. It is your playing that counts and if'n ya don' know a G from a C from a Db, who cares as long as you can make people cry when ya pick them strangs.

Luv ya man, God bless you,

carl

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

Roger,

I've been working through Jerry Byrds course and am involved in a lesson that uses A Major. Because I play an 8 string (and am lazy) I did not change my G strings (1,5)from the previous lesson which was in C6. So I ended up with A C# E G A C# E G (low to high) a nice A7. Much to my surprise I could really improve upon the practice song by using the dom.7th G. Really like the idea of changing one of them to F# and creating the A/7/6...the world gets better 'in better!!

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

Roger,

I've been working through Jerry Byrds course and am involved in a lesson that uses A Major. Because I play an 8 string (and am lazy) I did not change my G strings (1,5)from the previous lesson which was in C6. So I ended up with A C# E G A C# E G (low to high) a nice A7. Much to my surprise I could really improve upon the practice song by using the dom.7th G. Really like the idea of changing one of them to F# and creating the A/7/6...the world gets better 'in better!!

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I'm just curious about this feller named Tom Campbell........I mean, like is he becoming and elderly, senior citizen sorta guy or what; I mean, like he is already repeating himself.

Re: CARL DIXON's last explanation:

WHAT DID HE SAY?

Only joking Carl. I was always too lazy to study that kind of technical stuff...and that's why my music teacher 86'd me out of her study group at a very tender age.
When it comes to music and/or theory, I REALLY don't know much. But I enjoy playing it and/or hunting and digging it out more than studying about it.

But I do have a TECHNICAL QUESTION this time for you C.Dixon: If each guy in a six piece c/w group each has a different brand name electronic tuning device (some cheap and some very expensive) and none of them have been calibrated to any of the others in the group......... can the group REALLY BE IN TUNE regardless of what pitch their using?

SECOND QUESTION: When it's been the NORM for centuries to tune guitars from the "E" or top string DOWN>........., what happens when one guy on the steel tunes from the bottom string >UP?

Just curious as I'm still trying to learn.

[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 13 June 2002 at 10:49 AM.]

mikey · From: New Jersey

Roger, go with JB's C6/A7...It gives way more possibilities than a straight A7 1 fret gives you a multitude of chords...so on 8 it would be A,C,C#,E,G,A,C,E or lose the Low A and put on a High G, as long as you have a C# in there you can get your straight bar A7th
Mike

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Earlier, Ray commented agout B11 as used by JB and other players. IF any of you play a D-10 or Universal pedal steel, you can get this full 6 note 11th chord anywhere on the C neck by engaging pedals 7 and 8 and strumming strings 8 thru 3.

So to follow, if you want the dominant 11th chord in any key, slide down 2 frets from the I chord, engage these two pedals and strum the above strings. It is an awesome chord and resolves nicely back to the I chord if you slide up two frets and disengage the pedals.

If you try less than the 6 strings you can vary the timbre of the chord for some deviation and color to your playing.

carl

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Cool tip Carl, thanks, and I'll give it a try!

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

To Ray Montee:

Server reset itself, I didn't know if the first reply went through, so I tried to send it again and then realized...OPPS!

Sorry about that.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"But I do have a TECHNICAL QUESTION this time for you C.Dixon: If each guy in a six piece c/w group each has a different brand name electronic tuning device (some cheap and some very expensive) and none of them have been calibrated to any of the others in the group......... can the group REALLY BE IN TUNE regardless of what pitch their using?"

Maybe yes, and maybe no. Here are the facts of the situation. It would be almost impossible for all instruments in a band to be in perfect tune (all notes) with each other. So what happens when a band is said to be "in tune" is, they have found a happy medium point whereby the ears will average differences out. Let me explain.

When every member tunes to ONE standard (say an E note), it does NOT follow that all their other notes are in tune with each instrument.

This is because most band members "temper" or shoot for varying degrees between ET (straight 440) and JI (tuning the beats out). Now, because each player does this a little differently, IE, one's 3rd's is 435.5, another's is 437, yet another is 439, etc etc. we end up with different notes any time 3rds are played by more than one instrument simultaneously; EVEN though the roots between instruments may be dead on.

The human ear can amd does balance this out, IF the notes are not too far apart and, IF the differences tend to be above AND below a given median.

Now to make it even more confusing. EVEN our E's CAN be different, contrary to what I read in another post, IF the above is followed.

This can easily be proven. Just take a given tuner and have all the band members use it as a reference. Then AFTER they have tuned their other notes, take that tuner and check their E's. They will often be out with each other.

Also, Jeff Newman can correctly teach us to set our E's to 442.5. The reason we get away with this, (when other members are tuned to 440), is because some of the other instruments have their 3rd's tuned to a higher pitch than we do. So by bringing our E's up, it tends to make OUR thirds MORE in tune with theirs. And the roots tend to average out overall. (NOTE: cabinet drop plays a part in this scenario also)

"SECOND QUESTION: When it's been the NORM for centuries to tune guitars from the "E" or top string DOWN>........., what happens when one guy on the steel tunes from the bottom string >UP?"

It does not matter IF we they BOTH end up the same. But this is not always the case. I have found that most tune from top to bottom. Many people have great difficulty in telling when bass notes are out of tune.

Some, like good bass players are the exception. The same holds true for the really high notes. Our ears are more critical when the notes are somewhat away from the highest highs and lowest lows.

I get flamed a lot on the endless debate concerning ET vs JI. And questions like this generally generate to an almost verbal diahrea syndrome. But let me just say my final say on it. I feel with every fiber of my being that it is like the time of Columbus. The whole world just NEW the earth was flat. I imagine it was even taught in their schools that such is the case. OI am convinced even books were written "proving" this to be truth!

But soo many times, we find that what is perceived to be is not the case at all. Here is the real problem when it comes to listening to music. We generally use one of the most imperfect testing devices in the entire world to "say" or prove, whether a given instrument is IN tune or OUT of tune. And that is the human ear.

When I taught audio at RCA's training centers this was the first thing we drove home. And this provable fact; musical instruments can and do play without regard to the notes "clashing" (ET). It is our ear drums and the cochlea/brain connection that is the problem.

Uncultured eardrums just do NOT like to resolve two or more notes that are not harmonically pure. The interesting thing about this is, bonified "finished" concert musicians who have been cultured over many many years have little to NO difficulty with this.

That is why many a finished concert pianist, listening to a well "tuned" steel (JI) will say,

"You are flat!" And we are to his ears.

God bless you,

carl

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I appreciate that Mr. Dixon. Thank you for the easy to understand explanation.

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

I would like to thank everyone for the input. I really appreciate it.

Roger

Forum Index > Steel Without Pedals		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: